Full Transcript:

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John Kennedy: Hello, welcome to Tape Notes.

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John Kennedy: I’m very excited to tell you about our new episode this week.

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John Kennedy: We were very lucky to meet Hayley Williams and Daniel James to talk about Hayley’s new album.

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John Kennedy: At the time, it wasn’t even clear that it was an album, as she had surprisingly 17 singles on one day without a title for the whole body of work.

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John Kennedy: But as we learned when we met, it most definitely is an album.

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John Kennedy: Ego Death At A Bachelorette Party, such an incredible title and such an eclectic collection of songs that Hayley was keen to let stand on their own individual merits.

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John Kennedy: It was brilliant to be able to talk to Hayley and Daniel about how they recorded them and how it all came about.

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John Kennedy: You could not hope to meet a more down-to-earth icon of modern music.

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John Kennedy: To watch the full video of the podcast, just head to the Tape Notes Patreon page.

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John Kennedy: That’s patreon.com/tapenotes.

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John Kennedy: By joining as a patron, you’ll get access not only to the full video episodes, which often feature bonus conversations and behind the scenes looks, but also loads of extra content like episode previews, exclusive photos, gear lists and as you’ll hear on the show, we try and include as many questions from patrons as we can.

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John Kennedy: So if you have any burning questions for any upcoming guests, just head over to Patreon.

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John Kennedy: And if you’re already supporting Tape Notes on Patreon, a huge thank you.

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John Kennedy: We’ve got some exciting things in the works for you and thank you so much for your support.

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John Kennedy: Thank you also to our partners at Tape It, the iPhone recording app for musicians, more on them and their brand new layering feature later in the show.

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John Kennedy: But if you’d like to try it out now, then just head to tape.it forward slash tape notes, search Tape It on the app store, or click the link in the show notes.

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John Kennedy: But now without further ado, let’s get started.

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John Kennedy: Hello, and welcome to Tape Notes, the podcast that looks behind the scenes at the magic of recording and producing music.

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John Kennedy: Every episode, we’ll be reuniting an artist and producer and talking through some of the highlights from their collaboration in the studio.

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John Kennedy: So join us as we lift the lid on the creative process and the inner workings of music production to see what lies beneath.

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John Kennedy: Hello, I’m John Kennedy, and joining me for this episode of Tape Notes are Hayley Williams and producer Daniel James to talk about how they wrote, recorded, and produced the album Ego Death At A Bachelorette Party.

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John Kennedy: Hayley Williams is an American pop punk and rock musician.

00:02:23.862 –> 00:02:28.222
John Kennedy: Hayley began writing songs in her early teens while living in Nashville.

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John Kennedy: Age just 14, she signed a deal with Atlantic Records.

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John Kennedy: The label wanted to make her a solo artist, but Hayley had other ideas, forming the band Paramore with school friends Josh Farrow, Zach Farrow and Jeremy Davis.

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John Kennedy: Paramore released their debut album All We Know Is Falling in 2005, when Hayley was still just 16, and the band quickly built a loyal fan base, as audiences resonated with the energy and passion in their music.

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John Kennedy: With Hayley as front woman and the only consistent band member since their formation, Paramore have released five more albums, winning numerous awards including three Grammys.

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John Kennedy: Instrumental to Paramore’s huge success in cult fan base, Hayley is acclaimed for her impressive vocal range and ability to convey emotion in her stage performance.

00:03:11.382 –> 00:03:14.522
John Kennedy: She has become an icon for a generation of music fans.

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John Kennedy: In 2014, she won Billboard’s Women in Music Trailblazer Award and has since launched a successful solo career.

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John Kennedy: Her debut solo single, Simmer, was released in January 2020 and her debut album, Petals for Armor, followed in May of the same year.

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John Kennedy: Hayley released her second album, FLOWERS for VASES, in February 2021, and in August 2025, she released her third, Ego Death At A Bachelorette Party on her own label, Post Atlantic.

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John Kennedy: Daniel James is an American musician and producer.

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John Kennedy: Emerging as a solo artist under the name Cannon Blue, he released multiple albums on the temporary residence label and toured with artists such as Mike Snow, Foster The People, and Polisa.

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John Kennedy: As a producer and writer, Daniel has worked on all three of Hayley Williams’ solo albums and collaborated with numerous other artists, including David Byrne, Paramore, Casey Musgraves, and Efter Klang.

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John Kennedy: Today, I’m at Platoon Studios, and I’m joined by Hayley and Daniel.

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John Kennedy: And what better way to start than by hearing something from the album.

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John Kennedy: This is Metazope.

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John Kennedy: It is Matazapine by Hayley Williams.

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John Kennedy: And I’m very pleased to say that Hayley Williams and Daniel James are here with me at Platoon Studios.

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John Kennedy: Hello.

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Hayley: Hey, man.

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John Kennedy: It’s great to have you here.

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John Kennedy: It’s so exciting.

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John Kennedy: But I’ve got, I was wondering how I’m meant to describe Matazapine and its place in the context of this release.

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John Kennedy: So you put 17 songs out in one go.

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John Kennedy: Is that the album title?

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John Kennedy: Is it an album?

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John Kennedy: We need this explanation.

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Hayley: It will be an album.

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Hayley: I mean, in the beginning, it was like the songs were kind of coming out so fast.

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Hayley: I think it was just one of those seasons where I like, especially as a lyricist, I really needed to write, and then it kind of felt like, how do we do this?

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Hayley: We kind of, we joked about just like throwing them all up on SoundCloud at first, but I was like, I don’t know, maybe eventually we can distill this into a record, like a full record.

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Hayley: So we’re on our way there, and the fans have been helping me shape it with like track order and all that, because all the songs are technically released.

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John Kennedy: Yes, yeah, yeah.

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John Kennedy: Because I’ve seen a few different track orders.

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John Kennedy: No, it is strange.

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John Kennedy: Oh, which way round?

00:06:04.170 –> 00:06:05.850
John Kennedy: What track number is this?

00:06:05.850 –> 00:06:06.990
John Kennedy: No, yeah, it’s really interesting.

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John Kennedy: I mean, obviously everything’s fluid now.

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John Kennedy: No, you can decide what you want to do, but at the same time, you are an album person.

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John Kennedy: You love making albums.

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John Kennedy: So did you think of this collection of songs as an album?

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Hayley: In the beginning, no.

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Hayley: And I think it is because it just felt like an exercise.

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Hayley: We were writing, oh my god, there was one week where there were six songs in a week.

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Hayley: We were a very tight-knit team, and we would just kind of send them to the group chat and be like, what do you think of this?

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Hayley: And it just felt really fun for us to get to write together again.

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Hayley: We hadn’t done that in a minute since we made the FLOWERS for VASES record together that I did, and we wrote for Petals for Armor a few of the songs on there.

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Hayley: So it was an exercise, and it really started to unfold, and it started to unfold in real time.

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Hayley: I think towards the end of it, and especially when we wrote the song Ego Death At A Bachelorette Party, everyone was kind of like, oh, well that should be the album title if you make this into an album.

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Hayley: So it is, and it will be, and it feels like, yeah, it feels like a very wide-spanning collection of music that sort of touches all these different influences that we connect on as musicians.

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John Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, it is interesting because when you listen to it, every single song in a way seems like a single.

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John Kennedy: So it’s almost like because it’s not technically an album yet, you listen to it in a different way, which is, which I guess is the whole point, but it really seems, oh, well, that could have been a single, this could be a single, but then maybe we listen to albums and think, oh, well, that’s not going to be a single, but it’s a brilliant album track, but you’ve really polished these into, there’s no flab or extraneous aspects to them, I think.

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Hayley: Wow, thank you.

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Daniel: Yeah, I mean, I think we both really were trying to not over edit or over produce, or we wanted to really move quickly and keep that initial essence of the song in place and not squash it by spending too much time on something.

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Daniel: So I think that kept things very lean and we didn’t have time to overthink things and just trusted that our initial ideas were like, let’s just go with that and let it be what it is, you know?

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John Kennedy: Yeah, it’s interesting because they are so varied and yet they do all work together as well.

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Hayley: Oh, thank you.

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John Kennedy: No, because you can hear all these different influences and inspirations and different genres within the songs, but there’s a unity to the sound of them all, I think.

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Hayley: Oh man, I honestly credit Dan for that so much.

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Hayley: His musical vocabulary and all the genres that he’s grown up understanding and I think all the places that I like to go as a writer, he seems to just already instinctively understand.

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Hayley: So, I don’t know, I kind of enjoy albums like that too, where I can hear all the different things that make an artist up.

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Hayley: And I mean, done that a little bit with my band as well, but this felt like, yeah, we just, we went as far in every direction as we could.

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Daniel: I think too, because we didn’t have a real plan when we started, everything was just like, oh, let’s make a track inspired in this direction today.

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Daniel: And let’s try, there’s so many aspects, I feel like that Hayley has, or influences, that don’t always have an obvious outlet.

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Daniel: And so we talked a lot about, well, how do we bring about these different sides of your work, or like your musical history in a new way?

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Daniel: And then we were like, well, what if we put this kind of weird R&B thing with this punk thing, and then just mash it together and see what happens?

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Daniel: And I think because we weren’t making an album when we started, it just kind of allowed us to have fun.

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Daniel: And we were like, if this has to live in a hard drive forever, that’s fine, we just wanted to have the freedom to try something new.

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John Kennedy: Yeah, how exciting.

00:10:04.190 –> 00:10:05.970
John Kennedy: We’re gonna look at three songs today.

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John Kennedy: And the first of them is Kill Me.

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John Kennedy: Maybe you could play us a Blast Of The Master, Daniel.

00:11:16.233 –> 00:11:18.433
John Kennedy: It is Kill Me by Hayley Williams.

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John Kennedy: That’s how it sounds, the mastered version.

00:11:20.973 –> 00:11:22.013
John Kennedy: How did it begin?

00:11:22.013 –> 00:11:23.473
Daniel: It started with you.

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Daniel: I feel like you were just around kind of playing on acoustic and you had that riff.

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Daniel: And I feel like you might have had that melody.

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Hayley: I had a melody that in my phone was called, it was called like French Detective melody.

00:11:37.873 –> 00:11:38.493
Daniel: Yeah.

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Hayley: I don’t know.

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Hayley: It was like Pink Panther or something, you know?

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Daniel: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Daniel: I have these voice memos.

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Daniel: So it evolved from that.

00:12:06.533 –> 00:12:09.513
Daniel: And then here’s the French Detective voice memo.

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Daniel: I just have a Pink Panther.

00:12:14.293 –> 00:12:14.753
Daniel: Yeah.

00:12:14.753 –> 00:12:16.513
Daniel: Like Murder Mysteries.

00:12:19.093 –> 00:12:19.273
Daniel: Yeah.

00:12:20.193 –> 00:12:26.853
Daniel: A lot of the songs would start with, you would have a sketch on, you would just have a melody or a guitar part.

00:12:26.893 –> 00:12:27.673
Daniel: Yeah.

00:12:27.673 –> 00:12:29.453
Daniel: And then, so we took that.

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Daniel: And then basically, so we had this solo, here’s the kind of the main guitar riff.

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Daniel: And then I think I just kind of quickly threw some drums in.

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John Kennedy: And are those real drums or?

00:12:46.233 –> 00:12:47.033
Daniel: These are all samples.

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Daniel: So like everything we were doing was, we wrote a lot just like a home studio.

00:12:53.393 –> 00:12:57.693
Daniel: So we didn’t, again, we were just, I like to move really quick when I’m, especially when I’m writing.

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Daniel: So I’m instantly just trying to grab samples or a loop that kind of could influence like a rhythm without getting in the way of like what Hayley’s trying to do melodically or vocally, but like just try to get a bass feel for what the song was.

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Daniel: And I think at the time I was hearing a lot of like, we talked about like the early Gorillaz stuff and like Beck’s Odele, like the Dust Brothers kind of a thing.

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Daniel: So that was like really what I was kind of influenced by for this one in particular.

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Daniel: And so yeah, so we just basically, it’s a pretty simple song.

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Hayley: It is.

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Hayley: I think it’s one of the simplest on the whole project.

00:13:35.413 –> 00:13:36.413
Hayley: But I love that about it.

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Hayley: It feels very nostalgic to me in this way.

00:13:41.293 –> 00:13:50.513
Hayley: I loved songs that sounded like this, like vaguely bluesy, vaguely groovy, but still feel rooted in like alternative music.

00:13:50.513 –> 00:13:51.073
John Kennedy: Yeah.

00:13:51.093 –> 00:13:52.513
John Kennedy: It kind of conjures up eels a bit.

00:13:52.933 –> 00:13:53.793
John Kennedy: Eels, yeah.

00:13:53.793 –> 00:13:54.453
Hayley: That’s cool.

00:13:54.453 –> 00:13:55.273
Daniel: Definitely.

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Daniel: I think we’re cognizant of the 90s type of thing, but I think we were more after how those records made us feel rather than trying to make 90s sounding music.

00:14:07.873 –> 00:14:17.553
Daniel: I think there’s obviously an influence in that way, but we weren’t trying to like, we weren’t like, okay, here’s that song, let’s make our version of that song at any point.

00:14:17.553 –> 00:14:21.913
Daniel: We kind of just had that basic loop, and then Hayley had these vocals.

00:14:26.573 –> 00:14:30.573
Hayley: I love an octave, I love a low octave like a lead.

00:14:30.573 –> 00:14:36.393
Daniel: Well, and I feel like we started, a lot of these songs would start with a low, like you would find the low melody first, interestingly.

00:14:36.393 –> 00:14:39.913
Hayley: Yeah, it’s just cozier, especially like writing at home.

00:14:39.913 –> 00:14:52.413
Hayley: You know, when I write to myself, it’s certainly not the way that I write, say like for a Paramore song, which so much is influenced by the live show, it’s very like hypey and in your face.

00:14:52.413 –> 00:14:59.653
Hayley: But I really love this song for how it just feels like something you can sing to yourself with a guitar in your room.

00:14:59.653 –> 00:15:04.213
Hayley: And that’s how a lot of the stuff that I do start that way feels.

00:15:04.213 –> 00:15:06.033
Hayley: It’s like a low octave.

00:15:06.033 –> 00:15:12.853
Hayley: And then we end up layering on the record, and it sounds like, you know, the lead that I started with ends up sounding like a harmony, you know?

00:15:12.853 –> 00:15:15.473
John Kennedy: And at this point, are you in the same room together?

00:15:15.473 –> 00:15:22.353
John Kennedy: Or when you sent the voice memos, were they something you sent via WhatsApp or something?

00:15:22.353 –> 00:15:26.493
John Kennedy: Or did you bring them in to Dan and say, right, look, I’ve got this idea.

00:15:26.693 –> 00:15:29.053
John Kennedy: And did you know those two ideas were going to go together?

00:15:29.873 –> 00:15:39.733
Hayley: Well, this one started, I had kind of decided I was going to move back to LA from Nashville and went on this big long road trip.

00:15:39.733 –> 00:15:44.333
Hayley: And Dan’s partner is one of my best friends in the world.

00:15:44.333 –> 00:15:46.753
Hayley: So I was like, well, I’m coming to stay with you guys.

00:15:48.493 –> 00:15:51.513
Hayley: And in the back of my mind, I was like, well, maybe we can make music.

00:15:51.513 –> 00:15:53.513
Hayley: I showed Dan the voice memos.

00:15:53.513 –> 00:15:55.053
Hayley: I think I sent them to you.

00:15:55.053 –> 00:15:57.973
Hayley: And we decided to work on them the day that the LA fires started.

00:15:57.973 –> 00:15:59.873
Hayley: We finished the song that day.

00:15:59.873 –> 00:16:02.273
Hayley: And it’s just funny, the lyrical content.

00:16:02.273 –> 00:16:07.573
Hayley: Cause I think for me, again, I just really needed an outlet.

00:16:07.573 –> 00:16:19.873
Hayley: And it’s so nice when I have an idea and Dan can build this world that feels like it perfectly encapsulates a feeling that I’m trying to get out of my body.

00:16:19.873 –> 00:16:33.913
Hayley: You know, and so I didn’t, I don’t think we knew what the song would be about, but it just kind of ended up being about generational trauma and kind of having that moment where you’re just like, oh, fuck, what more could happen?

00:16:33.913 –> 00:16:35.893
Hayley: You know, and then the fires happened.

00:16:35.893 –> 00:16:37.413
Daniel: Right.

00:16:37.413 –> 00:16:39.633
Hayley: And we went back to Nashville.

00:16:39.633 –> 00:16:41.013
Daniel: And we all left.

00:16:41.013 –> 00:16:41.493
John Kennedy: Wow.

00:16:41.493 –> 00:16:43.353
John Kennedy: You’re kind of running away from the fires.

00:16:43.353 –> 00:16:44.073
Hayley: Oh my God, yes.

00:16:44.073 –> 00:16:46.213
Daniel: Yeah, we had a very harrowing couple of days.

00:16:46.213 –> 00:16:47.933
Hayley: Ooh, it was God.

00:16:47.933 –> 00:16:50.773
Hayley: I mean, and we got out easy.

00:16:50.773 –> 00:16:53.433
Hayley: You know, we had friends that like lost their homes.

00:16:53.433 –> 00:16:58.693
Hayley: So, you know, it was nice to at least leave with this as a souvenir.

00:16:58.693 –> 00:16:59.673
Hayley: Yeah, yeah.

00:16:59.673 –> 00:17:05.033
Daniel: So yeah, we had like the first, that day we got the first verse and the chorus kind of figured out.

00:17:05.033 –> 00:17:08.873
Daniel: And like, so initially we just had this for the chorus.

00:17:22.973 –> 00:17:24.873
Hayley: I was so proud of that.

00:17:24.873 –> 00:17:25.853
Daniel: Yeah, it’s so sick.

00:17:25.853 –> 00:17:30.113
Daniel: And then Elise, my partner, my wife, can’t forget this detail.

00:17:30.113 –> 00:17:31.653
Daniel: She needs to get recognition for this.

00:17:31.653 –> 00:17:33.353
Daniel: She had this, she kept, she came downstairs.

00:17:33.353 –> 00:17:36.333
Daniel: She’s like, I keep hearing this like high harmony on this chorus.

00:17:36.333 –> 00:17:37.533
Daniel: You guys need to need to try.

00:17:37.673 –> 00:17:44.073
Daniel: So that’s when we added in this kind of epic, the high kill me.

00:17:45.313 –> 00:17:47.693
Hayley: That was a good call.

00:17:53.893 –> 00:17:56.533
Daniel: And that’s when I feel like we really locked into the chorus.

00:17:56.533 –> 00:17:56.853
Hayley: Yeah.

00:17:56.853 –> 00:17:58.813
Daniel: And that felt like a finished thought.

00:17:58.813 –> 00:18:09.853
Daniel: But yeah, I mean, there’s a couple of little things even initially when I was making the track, like, let’s see, that weird, there’s this weird, I’m always trying to find something that doesn’t belong.

00:18:09.853 –> 00:18:12.253
Daniel: And like, I see it as a mission to like make it fit.

00:18:12.253 –> 00:18:19.613
Daniel: So like a lot of times when I’m making songs, like, hey, we’ll be working on lyrics and melodies and I’ll just be throwing in as much stuff.

00:18:19.613 –> 00:18:21.613
Daniel: I like to just collect a bunch of stuff.

00:18:21.613 –> 00:18:26.293
Daniel: And sometimes I’ll have like five samples layered on top of each other.

00:18:26.293 –> 00:18:30.513
Daniel: And like a melody will kind of emerge and I’ll like mute them all and then recreate that melody.

00:18:30.673 –> 00:18:39.773
Daniel: So it’s kind of a way I find since I’ve been making tracks for so long, like a way to get out of my own way or like kind of surprise myself.

00:18:39.773 –> 00:18:45.233
Daniel: So like a lot, like for instance, there’s this weird sound in the chorus.

00:18:45.233 –> 00:18:48.933
Daniel: It just sounds like a dying robot or something.

00:18:50.253 –> 00:18:55.553
Daniel: So basically where that started was we had, I was just kind of messing around.

00:18:55.553 –> 00:18:59.873
Daniel: I’ve gotten really into the sly guitar lately for some reason.

00:18:59.873 –> 00:19:07.293
Daniel: So I was trying to find something for the chorus, and it ended up doing this weird like Hawaiian.

00:19:09.493 –> 00:19:13.093
Daniel: Then once Hayley had her melodies and it was kind of like too much.

00:19:13.093 –> 00:19:16.693
Daniel: So I used this plug-in portal a ton.

00:19:16.693 –> 00:19:19.253
Daniel: It’s like a output audio effect.

00:19:19.253 –> 00:19:20.673
Daniel: It’s like a granular reverb.

00:19:20.673 –> 00:19:23.613
Daniel: So I just threw that on there and just trying different things.

00:19:25.313 –> 00:19:26.853
Daniel: It just turned it into this.

00:19:26.853 –> 00:19:28.333
Daniel: I was like, cool.

00:19:28.333 –> 00:19:29.813
Daniel: And so that’s kind of-

00:19:29.813 –> 00:19:31.833
Hayley: It really does evoke that like back type.

00:19:31.833 –> 00:19:32.473
Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

00:19:32.473 –> 00:19:37.153
Daniel: I think, yeah, Odele especially was kind of like really prominent in my mind for this one.

00:19:37.153 –> 00:19:42.173
Daniel: Especially too, because you have the drums kind of start swinging in the chorus.

00:19:44.113 –> 00:19:49.353
Daniel: Got more of like early 90s hip hop kind of thing happening.

00:19:49.353 –> 00:19:50.013
Daniel: So yeah.

00:19:50.013 –> 00:19:50.633
John Kennedy: Yeah, yeah.

00:19:50.633 –> 00:19:54.373
John Kennedy: I mean, there’s so many questions about the sounds on these songs.

00:19:54.793 –> 00:19:57.013
John Kennedy: Because they’re quite unidentifiable.

00:19:58.773 –> 00:19:59.593
John Kennedy: Is that a guitar?

00:19:59.593 –> 00:20:00.393
John Kennedy: Is that a keyboard?

00:20:00.393 –> 00:20:00.713
Daniel: Yeah.

00:20:00.713 –> 00:20:02.253
John Kennedy: What are those strange?

00:20:02.253 –> 00:20:03.253
John Kennedy: But it’s brilliant.

00:20:03.253 –> 00:20:04.413
Daniel: Oh, thank you.

00:20:04.413 –> 00:20:04.833
John Kennedy: Yeah.

00:20:04.833 –> 00:20:11.913
John Kennedy: Tiny little bits of color that keep you interested and change things up in a really subtle way though.

00:20:11.913 –> 00:20:12.113
Daniel: Yeah.

00:20:12.113 –> 00:20:22.613
Daniel: I think that’s the one especially because we wanted to keep things simple and not overproduced, but also wanted it to feel like something that you didn’t know where it was going necessarily.

00:20:22.733 –> 00:20:25.053
Daniel: Like there’s just something a little off.

00:20:25.053 –> 00:20:28.553
Daniel: And so we’re always trying to find a little something that’s kind of like, why is that in there?

00:20:28.553 –> 00:20:35.573
Daniel: But over time you kind of get used to it and it becomes a big part of the sound, you know?

00:20:35.573 –> 00:20:35.753
Daniel: Yeah.

00:20:35.753 –> 00:20:36.973
Hayley: I think you’re really good at that.

00:20:37.953 –> 00:20:46.973
Hayley: You’re very intentional about the layers that you do add, and obviously we edit a lot as we go, but I mean, I trust Dan’s taste so much.

00:20:47.473 –> 00:20:57.513
Hayley: I feel like not only me, but my entire band, we’ve looked up to Dan for so long, and he’s not even really that much older than us, but he was making music before we were.

00:20:57.513 –> 00:21:12.793
Hayley: So your taste is so cool because there’s just things that I’ll think, oh, that feels done, and he’ll kind of like obsess over this one part for a little while and it’ll end up being like this little thing that totally makes all the difference.

00:21:12.813 –> 00:21:14.353
Hayley: They’re so intentional.

00:21:14.873 –> 00:21:23.293
Hayley: It’s really fun for me as a writer because it brings things out of these parts that I’m hearing in my head that I wouldn’t have known how they would end up.

00:21:23.293 –> 00:21:27.373
Daniel: I’m always looking over my shoulder and be like, is this two out there?

00:21:27.373 –> 00:21:28.993
Daniel: Are we okay to do this?

00:21:28.993 –> 00:21:41.813
John Kennedy: But it seems to work so well on that song because it kind of somehow mirrors the lyrics, knowing that there’s this kind of almost disaffected aspect to the words that you’re saying, oh, I’m kind of tired of this.

00:21:42.573 –> 00:21:52.733
John Kennedy: And there’s a kind of woozy aspect to the music that kind of mirrors that somehow, which helps articulate it without you even realizing that it’s articulating it.

00:21:52.733 –> 00:21:53.153
Hayley: Yes.

00:21:53.153 –> 00:22:10.473
John Kennedy: No, because that’s one of the interesting things about this collection of songs is that contrast between the music and the lyrical bite that you often have, Hayley, because you often have these words that actually jolt the listener a bit because you say some pretty gripping things, like, kill me.

00:22:12.153 –> 00:22:16.153
John Kennedy: No, because that’s not what people would normally say, would they?

00:22:16.433 –> 00:22:23.333
John Kennedy: It’s kind of that reaching the end of your tether with something, but expressing it in a non-aggressive kind of way.

00:22:23.333 –> 00:22:25.753
Hayley: I mean, I think people would say this.

00:22:25.753 –> 00:22:55.773
Hayley: I think that it’s easy to get caught up in TikTok lingo where someone would say Unalive Me instead, but I actually think to be conversational with your friends, there’s like a safety with people who really know you, who are right around you, where you can say like, fuck, just kill me already, and again, there’s a safety and familiarity that makes that conversational type of writing feel, I don’t know.

00:22:55.773 –> 00:23:03.053
Hayley: When I feel the worst or when I’m so frustrated and everything feels like an eye roll, that is kind of what I would say.

00:23:03.053 –> 00:23:05.673
Hayley: I’d be joking, but I don’t know.

00:23:06.253 –> 00:23:09.673
Hayley: Maybe some days you’re not joking, but thank you.

00:23:09.673 –> 00:23:14.413
Hayley: That really means a lot to, I just care a lot about the words.

00:23:14.413 –> 00:23:19.813
Hayley: It’s like the thing that, I think the thing about it that keeps me alive in all of it.

00:23:19.813 –> 00:23:34.273
Hayley: Obviously, I love sounds, I love working, collaborating with my friends and people that I can be challenged by and inspired by, but the lyrics is like, that’s my, I don’t know, that’s where I lay my head down at the end of the day.

00:23:34.353 –> 00:23:36.393
Hayley: I’m like, did I get it all out, you know?

00:23:36.393 –> 00:23:37.353
John Kennedy: Yeah.

00:23:37.353 –> 00:23:38.813
John Kennedy: What else can we hear in the track down?

00:23:38.853 –> 00:23:39.073
Daniel: Sure.

00:23:39.093 –> 00:23:39.793
John Kennedy: Yeah.

00:23:39.793 –> 00:23:43.093
Daniel: This is just again, just from the initial day of writing.

00:23:43.093 –> 00:23:49.213
Daniel: But so there’s, I always like to build a lot of just kind of a bed of just ambient textural stuff.

00:23:49.213 –> 00:23:51.513
Daniel: So let’s see.

00:23:57.513 –> 00:24:01.653
Daniel: So yeah, there’s just like, I don’t even, there’s no rhyme or reason to it.

00:24:01.653 –> 00:24:04.793
Daniel: I just like, I’ll find something and be like, oh, that’s interesting.

00:24:04.793 –> 00:24:05.953
Daniel: Let me put it in.

00:24:05.953 –> 00:24:09.233
Daniel: So like, there’s, let’s see, there’s some more droney stuff.

00:24:16.651 –> 00:24:19.731
Daniel: Yeah, so it’s just kind of just creates this kind of eerie.

00:24:19.831 –> 00:24:31.311
Daniel: I love, I listen to a lot of drone and noise and ambient music, so that’s also like a weird subtext to how I like to make tracks is to have kind of set a scene.

00:24:31.311 –> 00:24:47.951
Daniel: And I feel like the lyric concept and just kind of the feel of the track, it kind of needed a little tension in that way, or just something a little ominous, or like kind of like something’s lurking in the background here that you’re singing about in a way, too, and that was a way to kind of bring that out in the track.

00:24:47.951 –> 00:24:55.671
John Kennedy: And when you’re making those, I mean, do they start in a way as doodles, that you’re just kind of playing around with sound and trying, searching for something?

00:24:55.671 –> 00:24:58.151
Daniel: Yeah, I mean, it’s different every time.

00:24:58.911 –> 00:25:01.831
Daniel: I used to have like an, I started with like an MPC.

00:25:01.831 –> 00:25:08.151
Daniel: So I used to like sample records a lot and like would just make sounds and stretch audio and that sort of thing.

00:25:08.151 –> 00:25:13.651
Daniel: So I kind of like, like I’ll use Splice a lot and I’ll treat it like crate digging now.

00:25:13.791 –> 00:25:19.171
Daniel: So I’ll like just type in, I think my favorite thing to type in is Splice.

00:25:19.171 –> 00:25:21.351
Daniel: It’s just like weird or like experimental.

00:25:21.351 –> 00:25:23.351
Daniel: And then that’s, I’ll grab stuff like that.

00:25:23.351 –> 00:25:25.771
Daniel: And then I’ll just start pitching with it or throwing it.

00:25:25.771 –> 00:25:27.631
Daniel: Like here’s another time I use Portal.

00:25:27.631 –> 00:25:30.251
Daniel: So like this sound, this is the sample.

00:25:30.251 –> 00:25:32.131
Daniel: And then this is the original.

00:25:33.171 –> 00:25:35.451
Daniel: Yeah, so it’s like a string sample.

00:25:35.451 –> 00:25:39.271
Daniel: And then, so I pitched that in the key and then threw Portal on it.

00:25:43.311 –> 00:25:54.551
Daniel: And it’s just pulling it in just these weird, weird ways that when it’s tucked in it, like kind of can just create a little extra texture, as we like to say, in the studio.

00:25:54.551 –> 00:25:58.231
Hayley: Man, you’re always doing some crazy shit over there while I’m trying to finish the lyrics.

00:25:59.131 –> 00:26:01.031
Hayley: I never know what you’re doing over there.

00:26:01.031 –> 00:26:02.671
Hayley: You’re just like hunched over the keyboard.

00:26:02.671 –> 00:26:03.391
Daniel: I know.

00:26:04.171 –> 00:26:14.591
Daniel: Here’s just some guitar stuff.

00:26:14.591 –> 00:26:18.251
Daniel: So that’s just like kind of giving the verse like an extra little…

00:26:23.491 –> 00:26:24.431
Hayley: Feels like me without you.

00:26:25.171 –> 00:26:25.291
Daniel: Yeah.

00:26:28.844 –> 00:26:32.144
Daniel: Always just trying to keep something new happening, you know?

00:26:32.144 –> 00:26:44.844
Daniel: I think that that’s like the pop side of things, they’re like just trying to like keep things moving and you know, I love a 20-minute drone song as much as anyone, but I also love pop music.

00:26:44.844 –> 00:26:47.984
Daniel: So it’s like, it’s cool to have both.

00:26:47.984 –> 00:26:52.124
John Kennedy: You’ve unlocked a way of creating drones that people’s interest.

00:26:52.144 –> 00:26:53.024
Daniel: Yeah, thank you.

00:26:53.024 –> 00:26:53.904
John Kennedy: I try.

00:26:53.904 –> 00:26:56.844
Daniel: I’m pioneering a new thing.

00:26:56.844 –> 00:26:59.144
John Kennedy: So you mentioned the final session.

00:26:59.144 –> 00:26:59.424
Daniel: Yeah.

00:26:59.424 –> 00:27:01.564
John Kennedy: You’re going to dig into that as well.

00:27:01.564 –> 00:27:09.784
Daniel: So yeah, we had this amazing artist, Brian Robert Jones, who I met through Hayley when he was playing with Paramore.

00:27:09.784 –> 00:27:12.684
Hayley: Yeah, he played with Paramore, our last album cycle.

00:27:12.684 –> 00:27:15.124
Hayley: I mean, he’s in the band, technically.

00:27:15.124 –> 00:27:18.904
Hayley: We have the Parafore that tour with us and they’re just our bros.

00:27:18.904 –> 00:27:21.144
Hayley: But he’s like a, he’s a wizard, man.

00:27:22.004 –> 00:27:23.384
Hayley: He can play anything.

00:27:23.384 –> 00:27:26.564
Hayley: So I don’t think we questioned that he would say.

00:27:26.564 –> 00:27:29.144
Daniel: Yeah, so we kind of, we had this version of the song.

00:27:29.204 –> 00:27:36.864
Daniel: And then we, at that, at this point, we had kind of gone to a proper studio so we could track drums on some stuff and do some more guitar stuff.

00:27:36.864 –> 00:27:39.844
Daniel: And I just was like, hey, can you just run with this?

00:27:39.844 –> 00:27:42.324
Daniel: And I really didn’t give them any direction.

00:27:42.324 –> 00:27:43.904
Hayley: No, you don’t need to with Brian.

00:27:44.164 –> 00:27:45.044
Daniel: He’s so great.

00:27:45.364 –> 00:27:48.204
Hayley: He sent it back and it was like, here’s the Lenny solo.

00:27:48.204 –> 00:27:48.444
Daniel: Yeah.

00:27:48.444 –> 00:27:48.684
Daniel: Oh yeah.

00:27:48.684 –> 00:27:50.684
Daniel: We definitely need to play the Lenny solo.

00:27:50.744 –> 00:27:56.764
Daniel: So yeah, so basically this top stuff is kind of like where we left off on the writing session.

00:27:56.764 –> 00:28:01.164
Daniel: And then here, Brian, let’s see, let’s listen to some of Brian’s stuff.

00:28:01.164 –> 00:28:04.064
Daniel: So Brian came in and added some more guitar stuff.

00:28:04.064 –> 00:28:06.704
Daniel: So he had this in the verses.

00:28:18.936 –> 00:28:20.216
Daniel: A little Evo.

00:28:20.216 –> 00:28:27.396
Hayley: Yeah.

00:28:27.396 –> 00:28:30.256
Daniel: So like that kind of just helped get the second, so that’s like in context.

00:28:30.256 –> 00:28:31.256
Daniel: So here’s the second verse.

00:28:59.071 –> 00:29:07.591
Daniel: Yeah, so like by this point, I beefed up the drums a little bit more, so there was a couple more things happening in here.

00:29:07.591 –> 00:29:11.351
Daniel: But again, it’s all just kind of samples and loops.

00:29:14.131 –> 00:29:16.391
Daniel: Just give them a little bit extra balance.

00:29:18.971 –> 00:29:20.811
Daniel: Bass is just super simple.

00:29:20.811 –> 00:29:25.491
Daniel: But yeah, and then Brian added this amazing guitar solo.

00:29:25.991 –> 00:29:29.911
Daniel: So here’s the bridge, and I’ll mute the voice sample first.

00:29:29.911 –> 00:29:32.031
Daniel: But so Brian came in with this solo.

00:29:58.358 –> 00:29:59.558
Hayley: You found the perfect sound.

00:29:59.558 –> 00:30:01.718
Daniel: Yeah, so that’s the Lenny take.

00:30:02.918 –> 00:30:04.518
John Kennedy: You’re still saying Lenny or Lemmy?

00:30:04.518 –> 00:30:05.798
Daniel: Lenny, like Lenny Kravitz.

00:30:05.798 –> 00:30:07.218
John Kennedy: Oh, right, okay.

00:30:07.298 –> 00:30:09.678
Daniel: That’s the Lenny Kravitz take.

00:30:09.678 –> 00:30:10.638
Daniel: We flew him in.

00:30:12.318 –> 00:30:26.618
Daniel: So after the fires, my niece is, I think she was about to be five, she sent a voice memo to my wife, just a really sweet thing, and it just happened to be the day after we had made this song.

00:30:26.718 –> 00:30:31.898
Daniel: And so we ended up using it in the bridge here, but here’s it solid out.

00:30:31.898 –> 00:30:36.478
Daniel: I’m sorry that you’re going for something hard.

00:30:36.478 –> 00:30:37.778
Daniel: And it was just like, it just like…

00:30:37.778 –> 00:30:38.698
Daniel: It breaks my heart.

00:30:38.698 –> 00:30:43.598
Daniel: Yeah, especially after like a really intense couple, few days that we had that.

00:30:43.598 –> 00:30:48.118
Daniel: And then the fact that we had just written that song, we’re just like, yeah, we have to throw this in the bridge.

00:30:48.118 –> 00:30:50.338
Hayley: And we had to ask, we asked for permission.

00:30:50.418 –> 00:30:52.378
Daniel: It was cleared.

00:30:52.378 –> 00:30:54.938
Hayley: Can your daughter be in a song called Kill Me?

00:30:56.078 –> 00:30:56.838
Daniel: They were fine about it.

00:30:56.838 –> 00:31:01.178
John Kennedy: I was going to ask about the voice, because I was trying to identify it and work out what it was.

00:31:01.178 –> 00:31:02.818
Daniel: Yeah, yeah.

00:31:02.818 –> 00:31:04.518
John Kennedy: Let’s hear it within the show.

00:31:04.518 –> 00:31:04.798
John Kennedy: Sure, yeah.

00:31:24.351 –> 00:31:34.271
John Kennedy: It’s really interesting, just because somehow, within the context of the song, and within the context of the lyrics, that even seems to tap in to the lyrics, doesn’t it?

00:31:34.271 –> 00:31:40.771
John Kennedy: Because you’re talking about generations of women who’ve been affected by different things, and here’s the next generation.

00:31:40.771 –> 00:31:41.971
Hayley: Yes, right.

00:31:41.971 –> 00:31:49.991
Hayley: And also this theme of dealing with your inner child, having to sort of parent past versions of yourself.

00:31:49.991 –> 00:31:59.911
Hayley: I mean, I think about Arrested Development a lot, because I grew up in a band, and I think we became known when we were really young.

00:31:59.911 –> 00:32:02.571
Hayley: That’s kind of like not a normal way to live your life.

00:32:02.571 –> 00:32:11.811
Hayley: So that came up quite a bit while writing, and it felt even sweeter that that sort of added the layer to that concept as well for me.

00:32:11.811 –> 00:32:15.371
Hayley: She just, her voice is so, it’s so hard.

00:32:15.371 –> 00:32:25.591
Hayley: When she first sent her, when they first sent it, and we were all like, we were kind of like holed up in Joshua Tree, everyone that was in a certain part of town like fled to the desert to get away from the fires.

00:32:25.591 –> 00:32:30.631
Hayley: And my eyes, I mean, we all got so choked up hearing that.

00:32:30.631 –> 00:32:32.931
Hayley: It’s just so innocent, man.

00:32:32.931 –> 00:32:41.991
Hayley: And it’s also to say something that simple to someone who’s going through something that’s, when you’re adult, every feeling is so complicated.

00:32:41.991 –> 00:32:46.071
Hayley: We make it complicated, but it’s just something hard we’re going through.

00:32:47.271 –> 00:32:50.611
Daniel: To me, it felt like a nice counterbalance to the chorus, too.

00:32:50.611 –> 00:32:54.291
Daniel: Like it kind of kept it from getting too dark in a way or something.

00:32:54.291 –> 00:32:57.851
Daniel: Like there’s a little bit of lightness to kind of bring balance to you.

00:32:57.851 –> 00:32:59.271
Daniel: It’s not all doom and gloom.

00:32:59.271 –> 00:33:00.751
John Kennedy: Yeah, yeah, totally.

00:33:00.751 –> 00:33:13.011
John Kennedy: But that also relates to the music, because I think you create this balance between the lyrics, the voice, the singing and the music that doesn’t overdo things in a way.

00:33:13.471 –> 00:33:26.551
John Kennedy: But it’s this beautiful way that the whole bunch of songs have this balance that allows you to soar, Hayley, and the meaning that you’re bringing with your words to be the focus.

00:33:26.851 –> 00:33:27.531
Hayley: I agree.

00:33:27.531 –> 00:33:33.651
Hayley: I think listening to these tracks, it just feels, I don’t know, there’s something cozy about it to me.

00:33:33.651 –> 00:33:41.191
Hayley: It never jumps out too much at you and demands too much, but I think there’s enough challenge in it to make people want to lean in.

00:33:41.191 –> 00:33:43.011
Hayley: And Dan’s really good at that.

00:33:43.011 –> 00:33:45.771
Hayley: That’s why I go back to his records that he makes as an artist too.

00:33:45.771 –> 00:33:48.491
Hayley: I’m like, oh, I want to lean in closer to it.

00:33:48.491 –> 00:33:50.951
Hayley: I don’t want to do this the whole time.

00:33:51.491 –> 00:33:53.911
Hayley: Which this is the kind of music I grew up making.

00:33:53.931 –> 00:33:56.831
Hayley: And I’ve always really enjoyed that too.

00:33:56.831 –> 00:33:57.851
John Kennedy: Yeah, it’s really interesting.

00:33:57.851 –> 00:34:04.271
John Kennedy: I mean, you kind of alluded to this, Hayley, already, but we had a couple of questions via Patreon that relate to this.

00:34:04.331 –> 00:34:09.291
John Kennedy: One from Thea, What differences are there in your approach to writing for Paramore and for solo projects?

00:34:09.291 –> 00:34:12.211
John Kennedy: And Kiefer also had a similar kind of question.

00:34:12.211 –> 00:34:17.231
John Kennedy: How do you decide which ideas become Paramore songs, or which ones stay as Hayley Williams solo projects?

00:34:17.231 –> 00:34:22.051
John Kennedy: And how do you tell them apart from all the other creative musical ideas you come up with?

00:34:22.051 –> 00:34:24.311
John Kennedy: Which is a tricky business, I suspect.

00:34:24.311 –> 00:34:29.951
Hayley: Yeah, I mean, there was one song on the project that I thought was going to be a Paramore song.

00:34:29.951 –> 00:34:32.411
Hayley: It’s a really good question because I think it’s a gut feeling.

00:34:32.951 –> 00:34:35.731
Hayley: And that’s a hard thing to explain.

00:34:35.731 –> 00:34:42.771
Hayley: This time period in my life, I think it felt really obvious that I needed to make something that was like this is a necessity.

00:34:42.771 –> 00:34:50.631
Hayley: There’s like toxins in my body and this is how I’m going to puke them all out and sweat it all out and be done with it.

00:34:50.631 –> 00:34:51.771
Hayley: Hopefully.

00:34:51.771 –> 00:34:52.471
Hayley: I don’t know.

00:34:52.471 –> 00:34:53.391
Hayley: Check back in a year.

00:34:53.391 –> 00:35:01.651
Hayley: But yeah, I do though tend to think a lot about the Paramore live show because that is a thing now.

00:35:01.771 –> 00:35:03.891
Hayley: I mean, that’s a thing that we’re known for.

00:35:03.891 –> 00:35:12.511
Hayley: So there’s an expectation that I believe with this project, I was very happy to sort of shirk the responsibility of.

00:35:12.511 –> 00:35:13.451
John Kennedy: Yeah.

00:35:13.451 –> 00:35:21.271
John Kennedy: I guess there is a weight of expectation with Paramore and what it represents, and how it’s meant to sound, and how it’s meant to engage with people and communicate with people.

00:35:21.271 –> 00:35:26.231
John Kennedy: That means it’s pretty full on in your face in some aspects.

00:35:26.291 –> 00:35:27.631
John Kennedy: Yeah, totally.

00:35:27.631 –> 00:35:29.791
John Kennedy: This allows you to put that to one side.

00:35:29.791 –> 00:35:32.231
John Kennedy: So it’s quite freeing, isn’t it really?

00:35:32.511 –> 00:35:37.331
John Kennedy: Probably will benefit both areas of your creativity.

00:35:37.331 –> 00:35:38.451
Hayley: I think that too.

00:35:38.451 –> 00:35:43.791
Hayley: Most of my favorite bands, the members all have their own projects and come back around.

00:35:43.791 –> 00:35:53.131
Hayley: It’s like you then go out and you collect these new interests and new skills, and then you bring it back to the table, and there’s more to work with.

00:35:53.431 –> 00:35:59.531
Hayley: I find that really interesting, and the first band that I really got into that with was the Talking Heads.

00:35:59.531 –> 00:36:06.511
Hayley: I was like, I like that there’s multiple projects in this universe that you can get into, and then they come back.

00:36:06.511 –> 00:36:10.231
Hayley: Well, they haven’t really totally come back together, but we can pray about it.

00:36:10.231 –> 00:36:12.271
John Kennedy: But they carry on making music in different ways.

00:36:12.831 –> 00:36:14.051
John Kennedy: Yeah, it’s true.

00:36:14.051 –> 00:36:14.891
John Kennedy: Right.

00:36:14.891 –> 00:36:17.951
John Kennedy: If there’s nothing left to highlight from Kill Me, shall we move on?

00:36:17.951 –> 00:36:19.031
Hayley: Sure, yeah.

00:36:19.031 –> 00:36:19.691
John Kennedy: OK, excellent.

00:36:19.691 –> 00:36:23.331
John Kennedy: We’re going to take a quick break, and then we’re going to have a listen to Love Me Different.

00:36:26.211 –> 00:36:31.571
John Kennedy: The next song we’re going to look at from the new collection of songs by Hayley Williams is Love Me Different.

00:36:31.571 –> 00:36:34.971
John Kennedy: So, Dan, if you can do the honors and play us a blast at the master, that would be great.

00:37:39.752 –> 00:37:43.112
John Kennedy: A little taste of Love Me Different by Hayley Williams.

00:37:43.112 –> 00:37:45.492
John Kennedy: So where did this all start?

00:37:45.492 –> 00:37:49.572
Hayley: Oh man, this chorus is so old.

00:37:49.572 –> 00:37:57.752
Hayley: In 2017, Paramore played a festival in Monterrey, Mexico with Phoenix and the XX.

00:37:58.252 –> 00:37:59.712
Hayley: It was a very cool festival.

00:37:59.712 –> 00:38:03.192
Hayley: We felt overjoyed to be invited to be a part of it.

00:38:04.032 –> 00:38:08.872
Hayley: And Phoenix had just put out a record that year that I was obsessed with.

00:38:08.972 –> 00:38:13.412
Hayley: So we all managed to get side-stage, like us and our entire crew.

00:38:13.412 –> 00:38:16.792
Hayley: We had our drinks and we were like, this is the greatest night.

00:38:16.792 –> 00:38:24.732
Hayley: And we stood right there by the stage and they were playing one of my favorite songs from the Tiamo record.

00:38:24.732 –> 00:38:26.492
Hayley: It’s called Fior De Latte.

00:38:26.492 –> 00:38:29.972
Hayley: And I just had it stuck in my head when we got back to the hotel later that night.

00:38:29.972 –> 00:38:32.952
Hayley: And I just kind of started singing my own thing over it.

00:38:32.952 –> 00:38:35.352
Hayley: And I was going through a divorce at the time.

00:38:35.352 –> 00:38:46.532
Hayley: Like it was a weird time in my life because I felt so liberated in my late 20s to sort of learn to take care of myself and make better choices for myself, all of that.

00:38:46.532 –> 00:38:48.432
Hayley: And this chorus happened.

00:38:48.432 –> 00:38:50.972
Hayley: I had it in my voice memos forever.

00:38:50.972 –> 00:38:54.592
Hayley: And I kept thinking this will be such a cool like pop song.

00:38:54.592 –> 00:38:57.372
Hayley: And it just took a really long time to get to it.

00:38:57.372 –> 00:38:59.772
Hayley: So I finally, I showed Dan one day.

00:38:59.772 –> 00:39:02.472
Hayley: We were kind of like, we didn’t know what we were going to work on.

00:39:02.472 –> 00:39:03.972
Hayley: I was like, this is an idea.

00:39:03.972 –> 00:39:05.472
Hayley: I don’t know really where it goes.

00:39:05.612 –> 00:39:08.792
Hayley: And also I wrote it to this Phoenix song.

00:39:08.792 –> 00:39:11.412
Hayley: So I don’t know how we go about that.

00:39:11.412 –> 00:39:17.472
Hayley: We ended up hitting them up and getting like the drums for Fior de Latte.

00:39:17.472 –> 00:39:18.092
John Kennedy: Oh wow.

00:39:18.092 –> 00:39:21.632
Hayley: And so it’s literally, it’s Phoenix.

00:39:21.912 –> 00:39:27.432
Hayley: You know, the drums that you hear is from the record, which just makes me, I just love that so much.

00:39:27.432 –> 00:39:28.372
Daniel: Yeah, they were the best too.

00:39:28.592 –> 00:39:31.652
Daniel: They were so like cool about clearing the sample.

00:39:31.692 –> 00:39:34.832
Daniel: Because basically, well, I can play the voice memo kind of.

00:39:34.832 –> 00:39:36.952
Daniel: This is like what you must have recorded.

00:39:36.952 –> 00:39:39.652
Hayley: I’m in, I’m about to get in the shower here.

00:39:39.652 –> 00:39:40.572
Hayley: You can hear the water.

00:39:40.572 –> 00:39:41.632
Hayley: It’s very loud.

00:39:41.632 –> 00:39:44.432
Hayley: But it did, it did what I needed it to do.

00:39:55.152 –> 00:39:58.872
Hayley: But someone’s gonna love me different.

00:39:59.092 –> 00:40:01.512
John Kennedy: So how long ago did you record that?

00:40:01.512 –> 00:40:02.012
John Kennedy: 2017?

00:40:02.012 –> 00:40:04.592
Hayley: October or November of 2017.

00:40:04.592 –> 00:40:05.232
John Kennedy: Right.

00:40:05.392 –> 00:40:10.232
John Kennedy: And you wanted to capture that inspiration immediately.

00:40:10.232 –> 00:40:10.732
Hayley: Yes.

00:40:10.732 –> 00:40:14.752
John Kennedy: So even though you’re just about to step into the shower, it’s like, I gotta do this now.

00:40:14.752 –> 00:40:15.212
Hayley: Yeah.

00:40:15.212 –> 00:40:17.092
Hayley: I couldn’t stop singing it to myself.

00:40:17.092 –> 00:40:20.252
Hayley: And I was like, shit, you know, wasting hotel water.

00:40:20.392 –> 00:40:24.392
Hayley: But I, I just, I love that rhythm.

00:40:24.392 –> 00:40:30.952
Hayley: And I liked sort of bouncing off of it, you know, thinking about the melody is like a bouncing ball, like on a karaoke track.

00:40:30.952 –> 00:40:33.112
Hayley: And I couldn’t be more thrilled.

00:40:33.112 –> 00:40:38.732
Hayley: You know, like you have an idea, sometimes you get it to the final and you’re like, that’s not at all what I thought.

00:40:38.732 –> 00:40:49.032
Hayley: This, that chorus is so much better than I could have ever dreamt, but it’s, it’s also exactly what I wanted to feel in the finished version.

00:40:49.032 –> 00:40:53.412
Hayley: And so I’m really like, I, I still can’t believe that chorus exists.

00:40:53.412 –> 00:40:54.672
Hayley: And we just sort of went from there.

00:40:54.672 –> 00:41:03.212
Hayley: It was like, I mean, it was, it’s a, it’s a simple song in terms of the writing, but I think the track itself just, it’s so beautiful.

00:41:03.212 –> 00:41:05.092
Hayley: I love this, I love this one.

00:41:05.092 –> 00:41:13.712
Daniel: Well, I think it was, it was nice having, I feel this happened a lot, like finding a little story or a reason to make a choice.

00:41:13.712 –> 00:41:21.692
Daniel: And I think the Phoenix thing was just like, why don’t we just pull the track in and try to sample it, see what happens, see what that unlocks, just for the lore.

00:41:22.632 –> 00:41:29.852
Daniel: So basically, yeah, so what we did was she played me that, and I just used Logic as a stem splitter thing.

00:41:29.852 –> 00:41:37.852
Daniel: So I just kind of put in, downloaded the track, and then I just ripped the drums, it kind of started with this loop here.

00:41:37.852 –> 00:41:42.072
Daniel: And you can hear it’s got that weird digital thing, because it’s like an mp3, but.

00:41:49.507 –> 00:41:50.427
Hayley: It’s so dreamy.

00:41:50.427 –> 00:41:55.487
Daniel: Yeah, so we just kind of started there, and then you had the chorus hook obviously already.

00:41:55.487 –> 00:41:59.927
Daniel: And then I don’t know why we decided to do like an arpeggiated thing.

00:41:59.927 –> 00:42:07.467
Daniel: I think just with the bounce of what your chorus was doing, we just like, I was just like, let’s do an arpeggiated thing.

00:42:07.467 –> 00:42:12.387
Daniel: So I think I started with this sound in Astra.

00:42:12.387 –> 00:42:14.987
Daniel: It’s just like a user generated sound, but.

00:42:24.683 –> 00:42:28.403
Daniel: So yeah, it’s just like a simple kind of flutey key thing.

00:42:28.403 –> 00:42:32.263
Daniel: And then sometimes I get really into the Logic Retrosynth.

00:42:32.263 –> 00:42:34.583
Daniel: It’s like kind of a, I think it’s left on a little bit.

00:42:34.583 –> 00:42:37.983
Daniel: It’s just like a really, just like their stock thing that they kind of base.

00:42:37.983 –> 00:42:46.283
Daniel: I’m not a huge synth head, so I can’t talk that intelligently about it, but I kind of, I like to layer it with that sometimes.

00:42:50.163 –> 00:43:01.643
Daniel: What I realized later, and actually Brian Robert Jones played on this song later too, and he was like, I think this synth is out of tune by 20 cents or whatever it would be, and sure enough, it was.

00:43:01.643 –> 00:43:07.423
Daniel: I think this whoever made that stock sample thing on Splice, it wasn’t tuned correctly.

00:43:07.423 –> 00:43:08.983
Daniel: So anyways, we fixed it later.

00:43:08.983 –> 00:43:16.523
Daniel: But yeah, so basically, we had that, the drums, and then here’s Hayley’s vocal.

00:43:22.804 –> 00:43:25.724
John Kennedy: So, this is a newly recorded vocal, not the one.

00:43:25.724 –> 00:43:27.444
Daniel: Right, yeah, this is that.

00:43:27.444 –> 00:43:34.364
Hayley: Yeah, we wrote this March or April of this year, so the song came a long way.

00:43:34.624 –> 00:43:36.884
Hayley: Yeah.

00:43:36.884 –> 00:43:38.964
Daniel: And then here it comes up on the chorus.

00:43:49.244 –> 00:43:51.004
Daniel: We added in some layers and…

00:43:51.004 –> 00:43:51.284
Hayley: Yeah.

00:43:53.724 –> 00:43:55.324
Hayley: I believe these are all demo vocals.

00:43:55.944 –> 00:43:56.544
Daniel: Yeah.

00:43:56.544 –> 00:43:59.024
Hayley: We kept most of the demo vocals.

00:43:59.024 –> 00:44:01.664
Daniel: Yeah, that was something we actually decided pretty early on.

00:44:01.664 –> 00:44:02.464
Hayley: Yeah.

00:44:02.744 –> 00:44:04.524
Hayley: I don’t like to overthink it either.

00:44:04.644 –> 00:44:08.424
Hayley: I get, I really don’t like to perform a song that we’re writing.

00:44:08.424 –> 00:44:12.024
Hayley: I just like to write it and perform it in real time, I guess.

00:44:12.044 –> 00:44:16.404
Daniel: Yeah, when you have such a great singer like Hayley, you don’t really have to push too hard.

00:44:16.704 –> 00:44:24.564
Daniel: I do like epic days of vocal sessions anyway, so it’s just like, again, like keeping it fresh and not overthinking everything.

00:44:24.564 –> 00:44:26.304
Hayley: I like the roughness too sometimes.

00:44:26.304 –> 00:44:36.924
Hayley: It’s like capturing something that, maybe there’s one bit that’s a little bit off, but it’s like that’s what I like about old punk records that I love.

00:44:36.924 –> 00:44:43.444
Hayley: Or even like pop singers or an R&B singer like Whitney Houston, who keeps those sharp notes that she hits.

00:44:43.444 –> 00:44:44.804
Hayley: I like hearing that stuff.

00:44:44.964 –> 00:44:57.004
Hayley: So having that mixed in to the DNA of this record, like it feels rough in this nice way that I think explains us better than if we overthought it and tried to polish it too much.

00:44:57.004 –> 00:45:07.884
Daniel: Yeah, and because we’re making essentially like a laptop record, it’s like a way to kind of keep that more old school performance, not over make everything perfect.

00:45:07.884 –> 00:45:14.284
Daniel: I think the temptation is when you’re looking at a grid, you want to move everything around when you have tools that you could easily like make everything perfect.

00:45:14.404 –> 00:45:20.644
Daniel: It’s really tempting, so you kind of have to actively like not go there when you’re working on a computer like this.

00:45:20.644 –> 00:45:25.024
Daniel: I feel like that was one choice we made early on was like, let’s try to leave the vocal.

00:45:25.024 –> 00:45:30.244
Daniel: I feel like there’s another song Discovery Channel where it’s literally just the demo one take.

00:45:30.244 –> 00:45:30.964
Daniel: Yeah.

00:45:30.964 –> 00:45:37.684
John Kennedy: And so does that mean when you record those demos, do you have a go to vocal setup that you would always use?

00:45:39.084 –> 00:45:44.304
Daniel: Yeah, we used the U67 for the last record we did in this one.

00:45:44.304 –> 00:45:52.564
Daniel: We used that through just like a 500 series, 1170 or sorry, 1073 and then into 1176.

00:45:52.564 –> 00:45:54.844
Daniel: And that was kind of the chain for everything.

00:45:54.844 –> 00:46:13.824
Daniel: We did a few vocals at the other studio that were different, but that’s kind of the sound we just, I mean 1176 adds a little bit of aggression, but I think that really worked with a lot of these songs that were in keeping it more raw and kind of like a little, just adding that extra little bit of distortion, I think was nice on Hayley’s vocals on a lot of these.

00:46:13.824 –> 00:46:19.624
Hayley: Yeah, and that’s a sound that’s not unfamiliar with ways I’ve recorded for Paramore.

00:46:19.624 –> 00:46:35.704
Hayley: So I like that, in the bit at the very end of the chorus where I’m really going for it, there’s these like shades of like, oh well, I’m still in there, you know, but it’s obviously in a whole other side of writing and singing and actually performing.

00:46:35.704 –> 00:46:37.224
John Kennedy: Could we hear that to just…

00:46:37.224 –> 00:46:37.724
Daniel: Yeah, absolutely.

00:46:37.724 –> 00:46:48.564
Daniel: Someone’s gonna love me different And I want someone to love me different Yes, I mean, you can kind of hear it kind of push on the compressor a little bit.

00:46:48.964 –> 00:46:54.584
Daniel: And I want someone to love me different I like that.

00:46:54.584 –> 00:46:55.024
Daniel: Yeah.

00:46:55.484 –> 00:46:57.284
John Kennedy: And are there many layers to the vocal?

00:46:57.284 –> 00:46:58.184
Daniel: That one’s just a double.

00:46:58.184 –> 00:47:00.104
Daniel: Yeah, we do layer a lot.

00:47:00.104 –> 00:47:04.204
Hayley: I love a double-tracked vocal, but we also love like four.

00:47:04.464 –> 00:47:09.864
Hayley: Harmonies and like low octaves will really try to make it lush with like as many as we need.

00:47:09.864 –> 00:47:10.484
Daniel: Yeah, I’m always…

00:47:10.484 –> 00:47:11.504
Daniel: Because Hayley’s so…

00:47:11.764 –> 00:47:15.064
Daniel: I’m not the best with harmonies, but she can just come up with them so fast.

00:47:15.064 –> 00:47:16.544
Daniel: So I’d be like, let’s try another one, let’s try another one.

00:47:16.544 –> 00:47:19.944
Daniel: And then we’d have this huge like stack by the end of it.

00:47:19.944 –> 00:47:26.284
Daniel: And that happened a lot with these choruses where they would have this very full thing that was just really…

00:47:26.284 –> 00:47:27.304
Hayley: That’s my favorite part.

00:47:27.464 –> 00:47:35.924
Hayley: I really think like, once you get the like, for me, the lyrics to a place, I just like to paint and it’s fun.

00:47:35.924 –> 00:47:36.484
Daniel: Yeah.

00:47:36.484 –> 00:47:44.224
Daniel: And then so, I mean, a lot of these songs, we would get like the verse and the chorus, and then we’d have to like, the bridges were always like an interesting thing.

00:47:44.304 –> 00:47:47.284
Daniel: And we always have these discussions of like, do we do a left turn?

00:47:47.284 –> 00:47:53.384
Daniel: Do we have like a new element or just kind of stay in the vein of where we are?

00:47:53.384 –> 00:48:02.264
Daniel: But for some reason, I feel like we started talking about like, NSYNC and like, that’s kind of like early 2000 pop records.

00:48:02.644 –> 00:48:09.284
Daniel: And that’s where we randomly ended up using this Mellotron sound to kind of give it that pop thing.

00:48:40.044 –> 00:48:48.324
Daniel: So yeah, but I mean, I think the Mellotron kind of gave it this almost like tiny violin thing, you know, like it kind of like served.

00:48:48.324 –> 00:48:49.504
Hayley: It’s very cartoony.

00:48:49.504 –> 00:48:51.044
Daniel: Yeah, or remind me, I don’t know.

00:48:51.044 –> 00:49:02.124
Daniel: You remember like, I don’t know, the late 90s TRL, Aero and MTV, where like they’d have all the music videos would have these little interludes or like they’d stop and it’d be this, there’d be like some subplot in the music video.

00:49:02.124 –> 00:49:04.684
Daniel: And like we were trying to like bring that out somehow.

00:49:04.684 –> 00:49:05.864
Hayley: Yeah, it totally feels like that.

00:49:05.864 –> 00:49:18.244
Hayley: And it really, you know, in terms of the narrative, it turns everything in on itself and tries to take accountability for what I’m looking for in someone else I need to find in myself.

00:49:18.244 –> 00:49:21.324
Hayley: And I was kind of in this mode.

00:49:21.324 –> 00:49:22.644
Hayley: I wasn’t sleeping a lot.

00:49:22.644 –> 00:49:26.464
Hayley: And I was watching, I was like, I finally caved and got TikTok.

00:49:26.464 –> 00:49:29.104
Hayley: And it’s not, I wouldn’t recommend it.

00:49:29.104 –> 00:49:35.024
Hayley: But I found Alex, this person who reads Tarot all the time.

00:49:35.244 –> 00:49:37.844
Hayley: And she just started coming up all the time.

00:49:38.164 –> 00:49:41.084
Hayley: And she’s just like in my algorithm.

00:49:41.084 –> 00:49:48.684
Hayley: Apparently the universe was like, you need some hard truths served right up to you.

00:49:48.684 –> 00:49:53.464
Hayley: And as the shit she would say, I was like, oh my God, it’s like she’s talking to me.

00:49:53.464 –> 00:49:59.004
Hayley: And then I’ll look at the comments and be like, oh, there’s like thousands of people that feel this way.

00:49:59.004 –> 00:50:03.964
Hayley: And it’d be like three in the morning and I need to be asleep and there’s blue light going into my eyes.

00:50:03.964 –> 00:50:07.444
Hayley: And I just, I don’t know, she kind of became a character.

00:50:07.544 –> 00:50:09.904
Hayley: Like she became, she was in the room.

00:50:09.904 –> 00:50:11.124
Hayley: You know what I mean?

00:50:11.124 –> 00:50:13.324
Hayley: And I love this left turn.

00:50:13.324 –> 00:50:24.144
Hayley: I loved writing Bridges with Dan because he’s always down to go somewhere completely different, which even in the next song we’re going to talk about, I think was the biggest left turn of all of them.

00:50:24.144 –> 00:50:32.124
Hayley: But this song in particular reminded me of writing with him for the first time on a track called Dead Horse from my first solo project.

00:50:32.124 –> 00:50:45.464
Hayley: And it’s similarly bouncy and poppy and kind of this has this like, I don’t know this, this, this, that song in particular has like an Afro pop influence.

00:50:45.464 –> 00:50:54.544
Hayley: And I feel like with this, it feels almost the way after Laughter kind of had this like island sort of, just like a whisper going on in it.

00:50:54.544 –> 00:51:01.724
Hayley: And to then turn this way for the bridge felt so good, narratively.

00:51:01.724 –> 00:51:12.664
Daniel: And then, yeah, also on the Mellotron, I had this, I’ve been using this a lot, it’s this little space echo thing from Slate, but it’s just kind of nice just to give it a little bit more of a character and put it in a room differently.

00:51:12.664 –> 00:51:14.204
Daniel: So put that on for here.

00:51:44.492 –> 00:52:01.072
Daniel: So, and I think, too, the sigh at the end there, I can sell all those out, is another example of kind of kill me where, and I feel like this matches your personality, where you have, Hayley isn’t afraid to talk about really intense, heavy things, but she’s also a very funny and lighthearted person.

00:52:01.072 –> 00:52:11.192
Daniel: So the sigh is kind of almost a character to keep the balance or something from the intensity of the lyric.

00:52:11.192 –> 00:52:13.272
Hayley: It’s like rolling my eyes at myself, maybe.

00:52:13.872 –> 00:52:14.692
Daniel: Yeah, like self-righteous.

00:52:15.012 –> 00:52:15.472
John Kennedy: Yeah, exactly.

00:52:15.472 –> 00:52:16.212
Hayley: I like that.

00:52:16.212 –> 00:52:17.872
John Kennedy: And how many Hayleys are sighing there?

00:52:17.872 –> 00:52:19.292
Daniel: That, let’s see.

00:52:19.292 –> 00:52:20.852
Daniel: Looks like there’s eight.

00:52:20.852 –> 00:52:24.092
Daniel: I think they’re all doing, let me see if they’re harmonious.

00:52:29.032 –> 00:52:30.692
Daniel: Yeah, so they’re just like.

00:52:30.692 –> 00:52:31.072
Hayley: Rated X.

00:52:31.072 –> 00:52:32.172
Daniel: We just kept going.

00:52:32.172 –> 00:52:33.492
Hayley: Yeah.

00:52:33.552 –> 00:52:36.932
Hayley: I love the, I love these little flourishes in the song.

00:52:36.932 –> 00:52:44.972
Hayley: It just was so fun as a writer to like have these kind of moments because they do give you a different side of the story without having to say a thing.

00:52:44.972 –> 00:52:45.852
Hayley: Yeah.

00:52:45.852 –> 00:52:46.332
John Kennedy: Yeah.

00:52:46.332 –> 00:52:46.752
John Kennedy: Yeah.

00:52:46.752 –> 00:52:47.532
John Kennedy: Really interesting.

00:52:47.532 –> 00:52:50.392
John Kennedy: Before we move on from Love Me Different, is there anything else we should hear?

00:52:50.392 –> 00:52:55.112
Daniel: Well, yeah, I can pull up the final session because we had Brian, Robert Jones again came in.

00:52:55.112 –> 00:52:57.232
Daniel: Again, yeah, no direction.

00:52:57.232 –> 00:53:00.352
Daniel: Just kind of let him run wild.

00:53:00.352 –> 00:53:06.272
Daniel: In the way that we were weirdly inspired to bring in a Mellotron and do that thing, he got really inspired.

00:53:06.272 –> 00:53:07.872
Daniel: I think he had just gotten a mandolin.

00:53:07.872 –> 00:53:08.272
Daniel: Was it?

00:53:08.272 –> 00:53:11.492
Hayley: Oh, he got it while we were on Aeros Tour last summer.

00:53:11.492 –> 00:53:12.692
Hayley: We were in Sweden.

00:53:12.692 –> 00:53:12.992
Daniel: Yeah.

00:53:12.992 –> 00:53:13.372
Daniel: So yeah.

00:53:13.372 –> 00:53:16.512
Daniel: So there’s a lot of mandolin on this track.

00:53:18.052 –> 00:53:22.872
Daniel: So yeah, where we were on that bridge, I’ll solo what he had added.

00:53:22.872 –> 00:53:24.992
John Kennedy: And you’ve given him no direction.

00:53:24.992 –> 00:53:25.692
Daniel: No direction.

00:53:25.692 –> 00:53:28.192
Daniel: No, nothing about a mandolin.

00:53:29.992 –> 00:53:31.652
Hayley: It makes me want a gelato.

00:53:34.532 –> 00:53:37.852
Daniel: Yeah, it’s like a Fellini film or something right there.

00:53:37.852 –> 00:53:44.752
Daniel: But when you have it layered in with the bridge, it just brings this other element out of it.

00:54:01.832 –> 00:54:07.552
Daniel: So we had that and we had, typically before that we didn’t have anything going back into the chorus.

00:54:07.552 –> 00:54:10.032
Daniel: We just, it just kind of started again, whatever.

00:54:10.032 –> 00:54:16.692
Daniel: And so Brian surprised us with another like amazing just left turn of a solo.

00:54:16.692 –> 00:54:18.932
Daniel: I don’t even, it sounds kind of a keyboard guitar.

00:54:18.932 –> 00:54:20.752
Daniel: I need to actually ask him what he was doing there.

00:54:20.752 –> 00:54:23.412
Daniel: But so he added this kind of like.

00:54:25.712 –> 00:54:26.572
Hayley: My jaw dropped.

00:54:43.099 –> 00:54:45.379
John Kennedy: So, we don’t know what instrument Brian’s playing.

00:54:45.379 –> 00:54:45.879
Daniel: I’ll solo.

00:54:45.879 –> 00:54:50.159
Daniel: I think, I mean, he gave me a DI, so it must have been a guitar at some point.

00:55:04.892 –> 00:55:07.912
Hayley: I’m so good with picking a sound that just fits.

00:55:07.912 –> 00:55:10.352
Daniel: Yeah, and it just helped to kind of…

00:55:10.352 –> 00:55:15.772
Daniel: I feel like the last chorus is such an important thing because everyone’s heard the chorus a couple of times at that point.

00:55:15.772 –> 00:55:19.092
Daniel: You need something to make people want to keep listening.

00:55:19.092 –> 00:55:26.792
Daniel: And I feel like that was such a nice re-entry or just kind of immediately draws you back into the song and kind of…

00:55:26.792 –> 00:55:29.592
Hayley: Like, there’s a lot of vocal layering in that last chorus too.

00:55:29.592 –> 00:55:35.892
Hayley: And one of my favorite vocal moments on the album is those woes.

00:55:35.892 –> 00:55:39.672
Hayley: It just calls back to sort of like punk roots.

00:55:39.672 –> 00:55:44.312
Hayley: And I don’t know why I just kept saying like, I want it to sound like Operation Ivy.

00:55:44.352 –> 00:55:47.732
Hayley: Like, it has nothing to do with this song at all.

00:55:47.732 –> 00:55:49.232
John Kennedy: I’ve got to hear that now.

00:55:49.232 –> 00:55:50.092
Hayley: They’re just roomy.

00:55:50.092 –> 00:55:52.152
Hayley: Like, they’re just roomy woes, but I loved it.

00:55:58.123 –> 00:56:00.983
Hayley: It’s so weird, soloed, it doesn’t feel like that at all.

00:56:01.023 –> 00:56:06.363
Hayley: In the track, it sounds like I’m standing in the back of a room, singing to the rest of the song.

00:56:11.856 –> 00:56:13.776
John Kennedy: And is there reverb on that?

00:56:13.776 –> 00:56:15.456
Daniel: Yeah, there’s so that I just…

00:56:17.276 –> 00:56:28.696
Daniel: We had, again, I’m not like real technical mixer type person, so I just, I usually throw Valhalla Vintage or the UAD, the Capitol Chambers reverb.

00:56:28.696 –> 00:56:29.956
Daniel: I use that one a lot.

00:56:29.956 –> 00:56:31.236
Hayley: This one’s so great though.

00:56:31.236 –> 00:56:38.496
Daniel: Yeah, it’s just like, again, I like to move fast, and I don’t want to spend 30 minutes in a session trying to dial it in when I know someone else.

00:56:38.536 –> 00:56:46.156
Daniel: Like, Manny Marikwin mixed everything, and I’m like, I’m not going to do anything that is going to be what he’s going to do, so why bother?

00:56:46.156 –> 00:56:49.996
Daniel: So yeah, so when I need space, I’ll typically just throw Valhalla.

00:56:49.996 –> 00:56:55.016
Daniel: And honestly, I rarely, I just use the default.

00:56:55.036 –> 00:57:00.456
Daniel: I just mess with the decay, mix free delay a little bit, and nothing fancy.

00:57:00.596 –> 00:57:03.136
Daniel: I’m pretty blue collar about that kind of stuff.

00:57:03.136 –> 00:57:09.876
Hayley: I have to say two parts like this, because we wanted to use demo vocals so much for just the feeling of them.

00:57:10.836 –> 00:57:15.216
Hayley: Dan was like, I’ve been told that you hate tuning, and I should never tune you.

00:57:15.216 –> 00:57:16.476
Hayley: And I was like, I don’t care.

00:57:16.476 –> 00:57:17.236
Hayley: I don’t give a shit.

00:57:17.236 –> 00:57:19.416
Hayley: As long as it sounds cool, I don’t care.

00:57:19.416 –> 00:57:32.616
Hayley: You know, we end up using like auto-tune effects, like all over this record, like for fun, just to add a layer that like, I just don’t think people have heard me in that way, but like you can hear the processing on that.

00:57:32.616 –> 00:57:42.896
Hayley: And I actually just think it adds to, because again, you can kind of hear the moment that I’m singing it for the first time, and it feels like it, it feels of the moment.

00:57:42.896 –> 00:57:47.656
Daniel: There’s like the performance, but then there’s also like the energy and spirit of something sometimes.

00:57:47.656 –> 00:57:58.116
Daniel: It’s almost more important than getting it, I don’t know, like having it from the day we wrote it adds more weight than recutting it or trying to beat it kind of thing.

00:57:58.116 –> 00:58:01.896
Daniel: Yeah, so I can kind of solo through some of these vocals here.

00:58:01.896 –> 00:58:03.916
Daniel: So we had like a lot of layers.

00:58:03.956 –> 00:58:05.416
Daniel: So here’s like the…

00:58:08.236 –> 00:58:11.116
Hayley: This is the register I like singing in the most.

00:58:11.116 –> 00:58:11.936
Daniel: Yeah, we started here.

00:58:11.956 –> 00:58:13.216
Hayley: This is my favorite.

00:58:28.616 –> 00:58:31.156
Daniel: Then we have these kind of countermelody things.

00:58:50.896 –> 00:59:00.056
Daniel: And it was, I mean, typically something that rhythmic would take a long time to like nail, but like, I feel like you doubled yourself and like…

00:59:00.056 –> 00:59:00.876
Hayley: I love doing that, man.

00:59:00.876 –> 00:59:03.336
Daniel: You stacked it so fast, like just…

00:59:03.336 –> 00:59:05.036
John Kennedy: Yeah, it sounds fantastic.

00:59:05.036 –> 00:59:09.196
John Kennedy: Maybe to round up the song, we’ll just hear that section within the full…

00:59:09.196 –> 00:59:10.036
Daniel: Yeah, but the full track.

00:59:52.356 –> 00:59:52.936
John Kennedy: Fantastic.

00:59:53.176 –> 00:59:56.816
John Kennedy: I can’t help but think people would want to hear an Acapella album from me.

00:59:56.816 –> 00:59:58.076
Hayley: Oh my god!

00:59:59.772 –> 01:00:00.912
Hayley: You just pitch perfect.

01:00:00.952 –> 01:00:02.392
Hayley: I just pitch perfect five.

01:00:02.392 –> 01:00:06.752
Hayley: And that’s just me showing all my vocal stems.

01:00:06.752 –> 01:00:07.912
John Kennedy: So that is Love Me Different.

01:00:07.912 –> 01:00:10.452
John Kennedy: We’re going to take another quick break, and we’re going to look at Parachute.

01:00:10.452 –> 01:00:10.992
Hayley: All right.

01:00:10.992 –> 01:00:14.132
Hayley: Sweet.

01:00:14.132 –> 01:00:19.672
John Kennedy: This episode is supported by Museversal, an amazing new service for working with session musicians remotely.

01:00:19.672 –> 01:00:25.412
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01:00:34.512 –> 01:00:37.772
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01:00:37.772 –> 01:00:38.352
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01:00:38.352 –> 01:00:39.532
John Kennedy: Great to have you on.

01:00:39.532 –> 01:00:41.352
John Kennedy: What is Museversal?

01:00:41.352 –> 01:00:42.852
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01:00:42.852 –> 01:00:44.292
David: I really appreciate it.

01:00:44.292 –> 01:00:50.752
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01:00:50.972 –> 01:00:57.892
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01:00:57.892 –> 01:01:03.252
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01:01:12.352 –> 01:01:16.892
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01:01:16.892 –> 01:01:19.432
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01:01:19.652 –> 01:01:20.392
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01:01:24.512 –> 01:01:31.432
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01:02:15.532 –> 01:02:20.432
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John Kennedy: To get the offer, find the link in any of our recent episode show notes.

01:02:45.472 –> 01:02:55.172
John Kennedy: The next song we’re going to look at from the new body of work by Hayley Williams, which has officially been titled Ego Death At A Bachelorette Party is Parachute.

01:02:55.172 –> 01:02:57.432
John Kennedy: So I mean, I’m still coming up to speed with all this, Hayley.

01:02:57.432 –> 01:02:59.732
John Kennedy: So there are 20 songs in full.

01:02:59.732 –> 01:03:01.172
John Kennedy: So is this a double album?

01:03:01.172 –> 01:03:02.052
John Kennedy: Is that what you’re calling it?

01:03:02.052 –> 01:03:03.452
Hayley: Technically, yes, it is.

01:03:03.452 –> 01:03:03.812
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:03:03.812 –> 01:03:08.552
John Kennedy: I mean, I think I’ve heard 18 of these songs properly and listened to them quite a few times.

01:03:08.552 –> 01:03:13.332
John Kennedy: And it doesn’t feel like a lengthy, epic, you know, gargantuan.

01:03:13.932 –> 01:03:14.212
Hayley: Thank God.

01:03:14.212 –> 01:03:15.552
John Kennedy: Album in that way.

01:03:15.552 –> 01:03:16.632
John Kennedy: No, no.

01:03:16.632 –> 01:03:21.452
John Kennedy: So it’s not like an extended, conceptual, narrative journey.

01:03:21.452 –> 01:03:22.312
Hayley: Right, it’s not.

01:03:22.312 –> 01:03:23.832
Daniel: It’s not a Genesis record.

01:03:23.832 –> 01:03:25.172
Hayley: No, it’s not, unfortunately.

01:03:25.172 –> 01:03:25.892
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:03:25.892 –> 01:03:31.432
John Kennedy: Well, you know, as good as those things are, but at the same time, I think it’s brilliant that there is this scope to it.

01:03:31.432 –> 01:03:32.292
John Kennedy: No, no.

01:03:32.292 –> 01:03:38.092
John Kennedy: And clearly you had such a creative time, you know, because you were able to just keep coming up with these songs.

01:03:38.092 –> 01:03:38.492
Hayley: Oh, yeah.

01:03:38.492 –> 01:03:40.292
Hayley: We’re still making things.

01:03:40.592 –> 01:03:41.312
Hayley: Can’t stop.

01:03:41.612 –> 01:03:50.472
Daniel: Even for me, like having written for years with people, I’ve never had a season of such this level of output of just every song we were like inspired by.

01:03:50.472 –> 01:03:53.572
Daniel: And like, yeah, I think this is worth putting out too.

01:03:53.572 –> 01:03:58.332
Daniel: And like, I’ve never had a run like that, this consistently working with someone.

01:03:58.332 –> 01:04:09.852
Hayley: I guess I just never, other than the self-titled record, I’ve never just kept writing, kind of always been like, well, here’s 13 songs and that feels right.

01:04:09.852 –> 01:04:12.312
Hayley: And kind of stop at 13.

01:04:12.312 –> 01:04:16.492
Hayley: But yeah, I don’t know, something about this season of life.

01:04:16.492 –> 01:04:25.912
Hayley: I mean, a lot of, I think in our entire friend group, a lot of grief, like, and the times we’re living in.

01:04:25.912 –> 01:04:30.632
Hayley: I mean, there’s just so many things you could, you could pull them down from the sky and just choose.

01:04:30.732 –> 01:04:42.012
Hayley: But particularly being done with my record deal that started when I was like 15, really affected me in a way that I wasn’t expecting.

01:04:42.012 –> 01:04:52.032
Hayley: And I had been waiting for this moment for so long, but to get it was like standing at the edge of a cliff, you know, not really knowing.

01:04:52.032 –> 01:04:57.552
Hayley: Like, I don’t know if something’s gonna, if there’s gonna be a soft landing or not.

01:04:57.692 –> 01:05:13.072
Hayley: And so I’ve been really grateful for like, to be able to come to you and kind of say like, let’s just see where it goes and to have the luxury of like, we’re both in a moment in our lives where we’re just really, really inspired.

01:05:13.072 –> 01:05:20.432
Hayley: There’s so much great music out right now also to be inspired by, let alone just topics that you can talk about.

01:05:20.432 –> 01:05:29.892
Hayley: So yeah, I feel like it’s not a concept album, but it certainly is a moment in life.

01:05:29.892 –> 01:05:34.772
Hayley: And it’s this season of my life that I think really needed to make its mark.

01:05:34.772 –> 01:05:38.152
Hayley: Cause it certainly like is making a mark on me.

01:05:38.612 –> 01:05:39.152
Hayley: I don’t know.

01:05:39.152 –> 01:05:40.492
Hayley: It really cathartic.

01:05:40.492 –> 01:05:47.432
Hayley: I mean, that’s, I use the word cathartic every time I put out anything and I kind of roll my eyes at my own self.

01:05:47.432 –> 01:05:52.632
Hayley: But I don’t know that I would ever process shit if I didn’t write music.

01:05:53.272 –> 01:05:54.772
Hayley: So always grateful.

01:05:54.772 –> 01:05:55.152
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:05:55.152 –> 01:05:55.552
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:05:55.552 –> 01:06:03.112
John Kennedy: And I mean, maybe it’s just the timing, but you seem to be able to reflect on various different aspects of your life and various different periods in your life.

01:06:03.112 –> 01:06:03.792
Hayley: Yeah.

01:06:03.792 –> 01:06:12.412
John Kennedy: We were just talking about Love Me Different and you want to think that that demo related to a different part of your life initially, and then it’s bang up to date now.

01:06:12.412 –> 01:06:14.952
John Kennedy: But the next song we’re going to look at is Parachute.

01:06:14.952 –> 01:06:17.112
John Kennedy: So let’s hear a blast of the master.

01:07:42.995 –> 01:07:45.455
John Kennedy: A Little Taste of Parachute by Hayley Williams.

01:07:45.455 –> 01:07:49.715
John Kennedy: And this is an interesting one because each verse is different.

01:07:49.715 –> 01:07:58.455
John Kennedy: Obviously, a lot of verses are different within people’s songs, but in terms of how you treat the music and what kind of evolution it has.

01:07:58.455 –> 01:08:04.295
John Kennedy: So like that section that we just heard, starts with the drums, but then goes really, really quiet.

01:08:04.295 –> 01:08:06.995
John Kennedy: But that’s just that section of the song.

01:08:06.995 –> 01:08:10.635
John Kennedy: Each next time, it’s different again, and the following time, it’s different again.

01:08:10.835 –> 01:08:14.375
John Kennedy: So it’s quite an exploration of different sounds going on.

01:08:14.375 –> 01:08:16.315
Hayley: It’s our Bohemian Rhapsody.

01:08:17.695 –> 01:08:28.675
Daniel: Yeah, I mean, I feel like this one, it reminded me of song like, Take Me Out by Franz Furnit, where you kind of think you’re starting in one place.

01:08:28.675 –> 01:08:30.775
Daniel: And then by the end of the song, you’re in a whole different world.

01:08:30.775 –> 01:08:36.995
Daniel: And even later in the song, like the bridge was another one of our bridge conversations where we were like, do we keep this?

01:08:36.995 –> 01:08:43.455
Daniel: Because the chorus is a very, kind of, more anthemic pop kind of structure.

01:08:43.455 –> 01:08:52.255
Daniel: And I feel like we could have kind of stayed in that lane for the bridge, but there was also a part of us that were just like, Let’s fuck it up.

01:08:52.255 –> 01:08:54.735
Daniel: Yeah, let’s do something completely different.

01:08:54.735 –> 01:09:01.315
Daniel: And so this song actually started with another amazing writer and producer named Steph Marziano, who’s based here.

01:09:01.315 –> 01:09:02.795
Daniel: And you had worked with her on Petals.

01:09:02.915 –> 01:09:04.535
Hayley: Yeah, I worked with her on Petals.

01:09:04.535 –> 01:09:10.415
Hayley: I met her because I got asked to come in and write with her and this artist that I love called Deneé Moore.

01:09:10.415 –> 01:09:15.555
Hayley: And Deneé had put out a record around the same time actually as the Phoenix record.

01:09:15.555 –> 01:09:20.255
Hayley: It was a really like good time in life to be a music fan that year.

01:09:20.255 –> 01:09:26.575
Hayley: But I met Deneé, I ended up going out and writing with her and Steph, and Steph and I talked about trying to do something.

01:09:26.675 –> 01:09:29.635
Hayley: I was really inspired to make a solo record after that.

01:09:29.835 –> 01:09:35.915
Hayley: So she came down and Joey, our bass player and I wrote a few songs.

01:09:35.915 –> 01:09:37.995
Hayley: And I just really enjoyed the process with her.

01:09:37.995 –> 01:09:40.255
Hayley: I really love her process.

01:09:40.255 –> 01:09:49.095
Hayley: I mean, she throws a lot of things at you that I think similarly to how we like to, it’s like, how are these things related?

01:09:49.135 –> 01:09:50.395
Hayley: And they are.

01:09:50.395 –> 01:09:57.515
Hayley: She sent me this piano idea, the beginning of the song into this little piano bit, those chorus chords.

01:09:58.655 –> 01:10:00.355
Hayley: And we just took it and ran with it.

01:10:00.355 –> 01:10:04.575
Daniel: Yeah, this is Steph’s original kind of idea she had sent over.

01:10:20.202 –> 01:10:24.122
Hayley: I just immediately tuned in to how sad it felt, you know.

01:10:25.702 –> 01:10:27.902
John Kennedy: And that is how the song begins, you know, so…

01:10:27.902 –> 01:10:31.002
Daniel: Yeah, we ended up using most of what she had done there.

01:10:31.002 –> 01:10:34.422
Daniel: We ended up speeding it up a little bit, but…

01:10:34.422 –> 01:10:35.882
Hayley: Yeah, she’s brilliant.

01:10:40.122 –> 01:10:41.782
Hayley: You hear these chorus chords kick in.

01:10:48.133 –> 01:10:50.473
Hayley: I was kind of like, oh shit, okay.

01:10:50.473 –> 01:10:53.353
Hayley: What would like MGMT do?

01:10:53.353 –> 01:10:55.333
Daniel: Yeah, MGMT came up a lot for this song.

01:10:55.333 –> 01:11:02.813
Hayley: Yeah, I just wanted it to feel like something that would feel very triumphant at a festival or something.

01:11:02.813 –> 01:11:09.653
Hayley: But yet I couldn’t escape how sad some of those piano moments felt.

01:11:09.653 –> 01:11:12.553
Daniel: Yeah, it has like a built-in melancholy to it.

01:11:12.553 –> 01:11:15.033
Hayley: It does, which is my favorite.

01:11:15.033 –> 01:11:17.073
Hayley: That’s my favorite shit, I can’t help it.

01:11:17.633 –> 01:11:18.573
John Kennedy: It’s interesting though, isn’t it?

01:11:18.573 –> 01:11:27.613
John Kennedy: Because the contrast between that drum break and the piano chords, and then it comes back.

01:11:27.613 –> 01:11:30.713
John Kennedy: Clearly, she had something in mind.

01:11:31.053 –> 01:11:40.953
John Kennedy: It’s quite interesting because you wouldn’t necessarily come up with that combination of a rattly attack and then completely bring in the sadness.

01:11:40.973 –> 01:11:42.073
Hayley: That’s so Steph.

01:11:42.073 –> 01:11:42.913
Daniel: Yeah, it’s very Steph.

01:11:44.073 –> 01:11:48.393
Daniel: She sent us that, and then this was the last song we wrote, I think.

01:11:48.393 –> 01:11:53.453
Daniel: But yeah, so basically, I took Steph’s, so this is like kind of what we did before Steph came to Nashville.

01:11:53.453 –> 01:11:58.453
Daniel: I took her sounds, and you would come up with the chorus, and we did this verse here.

01:12:57.755 –> 01:13:00.275
Daniel: So yeah, I think we ended up speeding it up even more.

01:13:00.275 –> 01:13:06.175
Daniel: We changed the key, I think, and then sped it up, because every round, we’re like, we want a little bit more energy from it.

01:13:06.175 –> 01:13:07.715
Daniel: Yeah, juice out of it.

01:13:07.715 –> 01:13:18.035
Daniel: And so, but yeah, so basically, this is what we had done before Steph came, but you can hear she had a lot of really cool key stuff happening texture-wise.

01:13:22.715 –> 01:13:26.875
Daniel: And it was great for me, because a lot of her choices were stuff that I would do naturally, too.

01:13:27.155 –> 01:13:35.235
Daniel: And so she kind of has a lot of the like that eerie drone thing is like, oh, I love that, you know?

01:13:35.235 –> 01:13:37.775
Daniel: And then she did this cool, I don’t know how she tracked it.

01:13:37.775 –> 01:13:42.095
Daniel: I think she just did this to a couple of her guitar effects pedals, but she has this.

01:13:45.335 –> 01:13:46.455
Daniel: Just kind of like to have.

01:13:46.515 –> 01:13:48.055
Hayley: It’s nice to have her voice.

01:13:48.055 –> 01:13:48.435
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:13:48.435 –> 01:13:49.535
John Kennedy: So that is her voice there.

01:13:49.735 –> 01:13:50.375
Daniel: That’s her voice.

01:13:50.435 –> 01:13:50.835
Daniel: Yeah.

01:13:50.835 –> 01:13:51.675
Daniel: Yeah.

01:13:51.675 –> 01:13:51.975
Daniel: So yeah.

01:13:51.975 –> 01:13:54.935
Daniel: So that’s kind of where we started the song.

01:13:54.935 –> 01:13:57.835
Daniel: There’s a couple more like layers for the bass.

01:14:01.835 –> 01:14:03.655
Daniel: It’s kind of got like a grinding.

01:14:05.215 –> 01:14:08.895
Daniel: There’s MS20, it looks like she used and maybe a Prophet.

01:14:11.255 –> 01:14:11.495
Daniel: Yeah.

01:14:11.495 –> 01:14:25.815
Daniel: So basically, Steph came in and we, nothing much really shifted on the intro or the first verse until I wanted to have some sort of transition moment to get into the chorus.

01:14:25.815 –> 01:14:29.015
Daniel: And so I started again messing with Portal.

01:14:29.015 –> 01:14:39.155
Daniel: But so I kind of created this, there’s a setting in Portal I use a lot called Ambient Lake and it kind of creates all these just really spacious sounds.

01:14:47.077 –> 01:14:52.577
Daniel: So that kind of became the dream moment in the movie.

01:14:52.577 –> 01:14:53.417
Daniel: When the-

01:14:53.417 –> 01:14:54.237
Hayley: Going into the chorus?

01:14:54.237 –> 01:14:55.077
Daniel: Yeah, exactly.

01:14:55.077 –> 01:15:03.157
Daniel: So in context, so basically what I had done, I took the end of her vocal, and then, let me see if I can recreate it actually.

01:15:03.157 –> 01:15:06.117
Daniel: So this way, you’re getting a little bit of her voice texture.

01:15:14.732 –> 01:15:21.192
Daniel: And so then I’ll take that, and I’ll usually side chain it to a compressor, so it’s not overwhelming her lead.

01:15:21.192 –> 01:15:29.472
Daniel: But it just kind of is a way to create a dreamy atmosphere without it feeling completely like another element.

01:15:29.732 –> 01:15:33.732
Daniel: It’s just like you’re kind of drowning the vocal intentionally, you know?

01:15:33.732 –> 01:15:40.012
Daniel: And then the next thing I found was I was going through some samples, and I found this drum loop.

01:15:41.752 –> 01:15:49.872
Daniel: And what I liked about it was it’s so dry, and so like out of character with the rest of the song, that it kind of like, I felt like it really kind of snapped you back.

01:15:49.872 –> 01:15:55.612
Daniel: Because you have that really ambient dream moment, and then there’s this really dry drum thing.

01:16:01.392 –> 01:16:05.712
Daniel: And it just kind of helped be like a nice segue bridge into the chorus.

01:16:05.712 –> 01:16:07.052
Hayley: It really hypes you.

01:16:07.432 –> 01:16:12.292
Daniel: Yeah, so I threw a little bit of another output sample, or plugin I use a lot, it’s called Thermal.

01:16:12.292 –> 01:16:16.072
Daniel: It’s just like a distortion grain phaser filter thing.

01:16:16.072 –> 01:16:20.032
Daniel: And then yeah, I have this drum overhead slam preset on that.

01:16:20.032 –> 01:16:21.732
Daniel: Again, nothing too crazy.

01:16:21.732 –> 01:16:27.672
Daniel: But I think for some reason, it felt like it wanted to have this kind of 80s thing to it too.

01:16:27.672 –> 01:16:34.052
Daniel: So we had the drums kind of, I added in some more kind of gated drum samples.

01:16:34.052 –> 01:16:34.372
Daniel: Let’s see.

01:16:37.632 –> 01:16:40.212
Daniel: So you’ve got kind of that gated reverb sound.

01:16:43.952 –> 01:16:46.412
Hayley: That’s got to be one of my favorite rhythms.

01:16:46.412 –> 01:16:50.872
Daniel: Kind of like a Janet Jackson thing too, like almost, yeah.

01:16:50.872 –> 01:16:54.792
Hayley: There’s something that feels, I feel so at home.

01:16:54.792 –> 01:16:56.832
Daniel: Yeah, it’s just like an easy beat to like.

01:16:56.832 –> 01:17:03.052
Daniel: But the way her chorus melody was working, it just felt like a real natural drum groove to have underneath it.

01:17:03.832 –> 01:17:05.272
Daniel: And then you came up with this part.

01:17:05.272 –> 01:17:13.732
Daniel: We have, I used a lot of, especially since we were in just a home studio, I used a lot of the Neural DSP plugins for guitar.

01:17:13.732 –> 01:17:22.272
Daniel: And there’s this one, this is the Tim Henson one, I guess, but it had this really kind of 80s sound to it that I thought was cool.

01:17:22.272 –> 01:17:24.032
Daniel: And then Hayley came up with this guitar part.

01:17:33.480 –> 01:17:35.460
Daniel: Just kind of have that, like, I don’t know.

01:17:35.460 –> 01:17:36.300
Hayley: On my metal shit.

01:17:36.300 –> 01:17:36.940
Daniel: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

01:17:36.980 –> 01:17:38.020
Hayley: Wintering style shit.

01:17:38.020 –> 01:17:39.300
Daniel: Yeah.

01:17:39.300 –> 01:17:43.520
Daniel: So that kind of became the back half hook for the guitar.

01:17:44.680 –> 01:17:50.420
Hayley: Yeah, that came before we put words to it.

01:18:06.168 –> 01:18:13.508
Daniel: Yeah, and then yeah, that later became, you used that to inform the countermelody later in the chorus.

01:18:13.508 –> 01:18:16.528
Hayley: Oh, don’t forget, Dan is singing.

01:18:16.528 –> 01:18:17.948
Hayley: Low octave on this.

01:18:17.948 –> 01:18:24.628
Hayley: I’ve been a fan of Dan’s voice for what feels like all my life, but certainly he put out a record in 2017 as well.

01:18:24.628 –> 01:18:26.088
Hayley: Or was it 2018?

01:18:26.088 –> 01:18:27.788
Hayley: He put out a Canon Blue record.

01:18:27.788 –> 01:18:29.128
Daniel: Am I older than that?

01:18:29.148 –> 01:18:30.408
Hayley: Nah, nah, nah.

01:18:30.408 –> 01:18:31.388
Hayley: You sure?

01:18:31.488 –> 01:18:32.728
Daniel: 2016, maybe?

01:18:32.728 –> 01:18:34.088
Hayley: Maybe 2016.

01:18:35.128 –> 01:18:42.768
Hayley: I was obsessed with that record, but Dan’s been making shit that we all have loved for years and years.

01:18:42.768 –> 01:18:45.188
Daniel: To tens of fans.

01:18:45.188 –> 01:18:46.568
Hayley: Not to tens.

01:18:47.188 –> 01:19:03.588
Hayley: But there’s something I really pride myself on is hearing someone’s voice and cataloging their tone, the tone that they have, and so when I write something, it’s like, this tone would sound really nice layered in.

01:19:03.608 –> 01:19:09.828
Hayley: I did that on multiple Paramore records with friends who were singers, whatever, like, I really want to hear your tone.

01:19:09.828 –> 01:19:13.168
Hayley: And Dan’s voice is just, it’s absolutely stupid.

01:19:13.168 –> 01:19:14.668
Hayley: It’s so pretty.

01:19:14.668 –> 01:19:24.368
Hayley: And I knew there was something about this melody that really felt reminiscent of a couple of songs on this project that he did that I was really into.

01:19:24.368 –> 01:19:28.948
Hayley: And I just knew that his voice would layer in the right way.

01:19:29.668 –> 01:19:32.448
Hayley: And I was, this one, I was the most right.

01:19:32.988 –> 01:19:46.448
Hayley: Of every time I’ve ever had that feeling, your voice just like, it slips into this in such a way that it’s not, you almost don’t really know what you’re hearing unless you’re really listening for it.

01:19:46.448 –> 01:19:52.168
Hayley: So I love that detail in the chorus and in the countermelodies you sing as well.

01:19:52.168 –> 01:19:53.868
John Kennedy: So we need to hear that now.

01:19:53.868 –> 01:19:54.508
John Kennedy: Thank you.

01:19:54.508 –> 01:19:55.168
John Kennedy: Isolated.

01:19:55.168 –> 01:19:56.688
David: Thank you, isolate that.

01:19:56.848 –> 01:20:01.428
Daniel: Well, this is your first engineering credit too, because you’re running the desk on this one.

01:20:01.668 –> 01:20:02.608
Daniel: Thank you.

01:20:02.608 –> 01:20:02.908
Daniel: All right.

01:20:02.908 –> 01:20:05.288
Daniel: So yeah, so we had that guitar part.

01:20:05.488 –> 01:20:09.268
Daniel: I’ll play Hayley’s doing it first and I’ll play mine.

01:20:09.268 –> 01:20:13.588
Daniel: But it’s kind of mirroring that 80s guitar line that she had.

01:20:13.588 –> 01:20:17.208
Daniel: Then I added in my lower layer.

01:20:24.588 –> 01:20:25.588
Hayley: That tone is good.

01:20:25.748 –> 01:20:26.528
Hayley: What about the other part?

01:20:26.528 –> 01:20:27.488
Daniel: So smooth.

01:20:27.488 –> 01:20:28.188
Daniel: Oh, yeah.

01:20:28.188 –> 01:20:29.908
Daniel: So here’s the chorus.

01:20:30.948 –> 01:20:32.228
Hayley: It’s your vibrato.

01:20:51.168 –> 01:20:54.448
Daniel: I’m like playing the fame, my biggest moment.

01:20:54.448 –> 01:21:00.168
Daniel: But yeah, I thought it did add like a nice layer to the bottom end of it too.

01:21:00.168 –> 01:21:03.868
Hayley: It grounds it in a way that I think it needed, you know?

01:21:04.868 –> 01:21:08.688
Hayley: It somehow keeps that vocal from feeling aggressive.

01:21:08.688 –> 01:21:13.828
Hayley: Like even though you can hear that part of my tone, it’s just, yeah, it grounds it.

01:21:13.828 –> 01:21:20.928
Daniel: But yeah, so speaking of aggressive, this bridge was, we probably spent the most time of any song on this bridge.

01:21:20.928 –> 01:21:21.868
Hayley: On this bridge.

01:21:21.868 –> 01:21:23.488
Hayley: Yeah.

01:21:23.488 –> 01:21:26.588
Hayley: Second guessing, like really, you know, it was like the choices.

01:21:26.588 –> 01:21:49.188
Hayley: It was kind of hard to land on what, and I felt a little bit like almost insecure about certain parts of it because I am a huge fan of just, I like ratty, hardcore records and wrote this riff that I thought, let’s use, let’s figure out how to use this in the song, but didn’t really want to go all the way in terms of like gang vocals.

01:21:49.188 –> 01:21:55.568
Hayley: I had a few friends, Brian, who’s in the other room, did gangs, his husband Colton did gangs.

01:21:55.568 –> 01:22:05.688
Hayley: I think Elise might be on it too, but I didn’t, I wanted it to still, you know, I’m not trying to, I wasn’t trying to make a hardcore record.

01:22:05.688 –> 01:22:08.648
Hayley: I just wanted to bring in that influence.

01:22:08.648 –> 01:22:15.828
Hayley: So, but I felt, you know, because I love it and I’m such a fan, for some reason, this is like the part of the record I’m the most nervous about.

01:22:15.828 –> 01:22:18.348
Hayley: I don’t, I mean, whatever, I love it, but.

01:22:18.348 –> 01:22:19.928
Daniel: Yeah, yeah, so I can play it real quick.

01:22:48.565 –> 01:22:50.965
Hayley: Get in the pit, you know.

01:22:50.965 –> 01:22:53.085
Hayley: Let’s open up this pit.

01:22:53.085 –> 01:22:53.525
John Kennedy: It’s great.

01:22:53.525 –> 01:22:56.145
John Kennedy: I find it really interesting because you can really hear that.

01:22:56.145 –> 01:23:01.745
John Kennedy: But the way that you’ve recorded the whole record kind of nods to that.

01:23:01.745 –> 01:23:02.545
John Kennedy: You understand it.

01:23:02.545 –> 01:23:03.625
John Kennedy: You can hear it.

01:23:03.625 –> 01:23:06.485
John Kennedy: But it doesn’t put us in the pit, really.

01:23:06.485 –> 01:23:06.965
Hayley: Good.

01:23:06.965 –> 01:23:08.165
John Kennedy: No, but it does it though.

01:23:08.745 –> 01:23:13.485
John Kennedy: And I don’t know how you’ve managed to do that, because obviously it’s pretty raw and it’s pretty out there.

01:23:13.485 –> 01:23:21.285
John Kennedy: But there’s some kind of balance you’ve achieved in terms of the production that keeps it about Hayley’s voice and keeps it about the songs.

01:23:21.285 –> 01:23:27.545
John Kennedy: And it doesn’t, because often, say, if you were making that kind of record, it would be about the style of the record that you’re making.

01:23:27.545 –> 01:23:30.005
John Kennedy: It would be about immersing yourself in that noise.

01:23:30.005 –> 01:23:35.065
John Kennedy: And then, you know, you really feel like you’re in that pit and you’re kind of messing around.

01:23:35.385 –> 01:23:41.485
John Kennedy: But somehow that’s your roots and you acknowledge those roots and you put yourself back in there.

01:23:41.485 –> 01:23:45.625
John Kennedy: But it’s still, for want of a better term, a pop sounding album.

01:23:45.865 –> 01:23:47.525
Hayley: Yeah, that’s a really cool compliment.

01:23:47.525 –> 01:23:50.425
John Kennedy: But it’s really hard to know how you’ve managed to do it.

01:23:50.425 –> 01:23:53.065
John Kennedy: I think it’s a kind of a magical thing that you’ve managed to do.

01:23:53.065 –> 01:23:54.165
Hayley: Wow, man.

01:23:54.165 –> 01:24:01.025
Hayley: Well, that is cool because I do get really nervous about this part for some reason, but I love it as well.

01:24:01.025 –> 01:24:09.145
Daniel: Well, one of my favorite guitar parts Hayley did on this song especially was she, well, she came up with the main riff, which I’ll solo out now.

01:24:15.481 –> 01:24:25.381
Daniel: And I just put like a dumb, I think this is like a telephone filter effect on it, just to kind of make it sound real cheap and like DIY.

01:24:25.381 –> 01:24:32.321
Hayley: Yeah, I remember us talking about that in the beginning, how can we make it sound more like Lego characters playing a hardcore breakdown?

01:24:32.321 –> 01:24:32.901
Hayley: Lego hardcore.

01:24:32.901 –> 01:24:34.221
Hayley: Yeah, Lego hardcore.

01:24:34.221 –> 01:24:39.941
Daniel: Yeah, and then so we kind of took that and then threw a phaser on it, just to kind of put it in a weird space.

01:24:40.001 –> 01:24:49.601
Daniel: So like, and again, it’s to use this Phase Mistress, yeah, the deep phase preset.

01:24:49.601 –> 01:24:53.921
Daniel: Again, I just go through presets until I find something interesting and then I’ll treat.

01:24:53.921 –> 01:25:00.621
Daniel: I’m not the guy that’s getting under the hood on much, mainly just because I like to just keep moving and whatever.

01:25:00.621 –> 01:25:08.741
Daniel: So but yeah, so we had that and then there’s this moment where you’re writing it, you kind of added a couple of bars or something and then she came up with this.

01:25:09.481 –> 01:25:11.901
Daniel: This is the most hardcore referencing moment.

01:25:11.901 –> 01:25:14.421
Hayley: It’s like the botch, the botch guitar part.

01:25:14.441 –> 01:25:15.841
Daniel: I love it.

01:25:18.001 –> 01:25:20.001
Daniel: Just nasty.

01:25:20.001 –> 01:25:21.761
Daniel: So you hear it in context.

01:25:31.861 –> 01:25:34.921
Daniel: Just a little nod to the hardcore scene.

01:25:35.401 –> 01:25:35.961
Hayley: Yeah.

01:25:35.961 –> 01:25:47.981
Hayley: Especially of that time, when I was a kid getting into certain records, kind of more medley, more like at the time everyone was like metalcore.

01:25:47.981 –> 01:25:59.841
Hayley: It was like, I don’t even know if people use that term anymore, but there was botch, there was, I was really into Norma Jean and the Chariot, these bands that I saw play all the time in Nashville.

01:25:59.841 –> 01:26:04.541
Hayley: So yeah, that was a nostalgic little bit, little fun moment.

01:26:04.621 –> 01:26:11.641
John Kennedy: It is really interesting though, because you can hear it, but it is also still within this bigger context of the whole record.

01:26:11.641 –> 01:26:13.681
Hayley: Thank God, that’s sick.

01:26:13.681 –> 01:26:35.001
John Kennedy: But it’s fascinating, we did an episode with Bring Me The Horizon, and again, the way that they managed to have that at the root of their sound, particularly on the last couple of albums, it’s still, yeah, so widescreen and kind of pristine and sharp, yet somehow soft, so I don’t know how you managed to do it.

01:26:35.501 –> 01:26:39.401
Daniel: Well, we did a lot of versions of this bridge, especially.

01:26:39.401 –> 01:27:11.001
Hayley: We really, we did, we kind of labored over that, which is funny, it’s such a short part of the song, but I mean, I do think we work well together in this way because we understand these roots, and we also understand as far as we both like to reach to up from those roots, and it’s just, thank you for those words, because I, this is the first time we really sat and shown anyone, when we premiere this song later this week, I’m going to feel like a little less nervous about it.

01:27:11.001 –> 01:27:16.361
John Kennedy: But it’s really interesting, because part of the appeal of that music is the visceral aspect of it.

01:27:16.741 –> 01:27:22.201
John Kennedy: And if you love that, it’s such an escape, and you kind of immerse yourself in it.

01:27:22.201 –> 01:27:22.501
Hayley: Yeah.

01:27:22.501 –> 01:27:23.981
John Kennedy: And the volume of it.

01:27:24.041 –> 01:27:24.481
Hayley: Yeah.

01:27:24.501 –> 01:27:27.661
John Kennedy: And you want it to reverberate in your body.

01:27:27.661 –> 01:27:30.641
John Kennedy: You know, that’s kind of what you need when you listen to that music.

01:27:30.641 –> 01:27:39.581
John Kennedy: But it’s so great that you are bringing that into this, because for some people this would be seen as, you know, oh, it’s Hayley Williams’ pop thing.

01:27:39.581 –> 01:27:42.461
John Kennedy: You know, this is what she does when she does the solo stuff.

01:27:43.581 –> 01:27:47.361
John Kennedy: But it’s such a part of you that you have to have it there, I think.

01:27:47.361 –> 01:27:47.881
John Kennedy: Yes.

01:27:48.601 –> 01:27:54.801
John Kennedy: And yet to be able to bring it in and not let it obliterate everything else.

01:27:54.941 –> 01:28:00.561
John Kennedy: I know that’s such a question of balance and trying to get that right.

01:28:00.561 –> 01:28:01.521
John Kennedy: I think that’s quite a task.

01:28:01.521 –> 01:28:01.721
Hayley: Yeah.

01:28:01.721 –> 01:28:11.921
Daniel: I mean, we had a lot of conversations around how obvious to be with certain influences and how much to draw it in without being a caricature of it, you know?

01:28:11.921 –> 01:28:18.061
Daniel: Or just kind of like, how do you pay homage or how do you acknowledge this musical lineage we share?

01:28:18.061 –> 01:28:26.941
Daniel: But obviously we’re not making a hardcore record or a metal record, but I think that’s why we labored over it so much, so we could have that respect for it, but not-

01:28:26.941 –> 01:28:28.241
Hayley: It needs to be respectful.

01:28:28.241 –> 01:28:28.641
Daniel: Yeah.

01:28:28.641 –> 01:28:30.961
Daniel: You don’t want it to just be like, I don’t know.

01:28:30.961 –> 01:28:31.981
Hayley: Like a Kidz Bop.

01:28:31.981 –> 01:28:32.561
Daniel: Yeah.

01:28:32.561 –> 01:28:34.701
Hayley: Kidz Bop hardcore.

01:28:34.701 –> 01:28:35.901
Daniel: No, that’s what I call hardcore.

01:28:35.901 –> 01:28:39.301
Hayley: That’s what I call hardcore is what we were going for.

01:28:39.621 –> 01:28:48.621
Hayley: I really also think that that style of music, it’s like turnstile says you really got to see it live.

01:28:48.801 –> 01:28:53.201
Hayley: I think that you have to be in the room to really know what that’s about.

01:28:53.201 –> 01:29:01.541
Hayley: I do think I grew up loving how it hits you in the chest when you’re in the room.

01:29:01.541 –> 01:29:14.801
Hayley: I love being in a small club, anonymous as a teenager, feeling overwhelmed by how aggressive a crowd can be, a band can be, the sound can be.

01:29:14.801 –> 01:29:26.441
Hayley: It’s all very overwhelming and I think when you’re dealing with a lot, especially when you’re a teenager, you’re hit with a lot of feelings that you don’t maybe have the words for.

01:29:26.441 –> 01:29:34.181
Hayley: So for me to find that style of music really young, just gave me a place to put it and it also, the music was louder than my thoughts.

01:29:34.181 –> 01:29:41.401
Hayley: So it’s a great way to be drowned out in a good way and be surrounded by people who feel maybe similarly.

01:29:41.401 –> 01:29:47.561
Hayley: I feel really excited about having included this influence because I can’t wait for the live moment of it.

01:29:47.681 –> 01:29:58.481
Hayley: I think it will be more impactful live and it will feel like this vortex we all enter for I don’t know how many seconds that is louder than the thoughts.

01:29:58.481 –> 01:30:06.761
Hayley: And there’s also a nice little manifestation that I’m trying to chant there, sort of trying to give an affirmation.

01:30:06.761 –> 01:30:23.261
Hayley: And I like that in a song, in a song that’s aggressive and communal because when a lot of people are chanting or screaming something that’s really powerful for themselves, empowering for themselves, I think it comes true, you know.

01:30:23.261 –> 01:30:27.141
Hayley: So a little bit of witchcraft in there.

01:30:27.141 –> 01:30:28.221
Daniel: Hopefully.

01:30:28.221 –> 01:30:29.621
Hayley: Darksided stuff.

01:30:29.621 –> 01:30:35.641
John Kennedy: And so, you know, the plan is that you will be taking these songs out on the road at some point or performing them at some point.

01:30:35.641 –> 01:30:38.921
John Kennedy: And in terms of a reflection of how you were creating these.

01:30:38.921 –> 01:30:44.141
John Kennedy: So I mean, we’ve talked a lot about the two of you in a room and exchanging some notes and stuff.

01:30:44.141 –> 01:30:47.461
John Kennedy: But is there an array of instruments around?

01:30:47.461 –> 01:30:50.721
John Kennedy: Or is that grammatically correct?

01:30:50.721 –> 01:30:51.701
Daniel: A plethora.

01:30:51.701 –> 01:30:51.881
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:30:51.881 –> 01:30:58.961
John Kennedy: Are you surrounded by a bunch of instruments that you’re picking up in turn and just trying things out as you’re creating these sounds and these songs?

01:30:58.961 –> 01:31:00.401
Hayley: We’re pretty bare bones.

01:31:00.421 –> 01:31:08.341
Hayley: I mean, I had thought I was moving to LA, swiftly turned back around and headed back for Nashville.

01:31:08.341 –> 01:31:12.201
Hayley: And honestly, a lot of my stuff is still all over the place.

01:31:12.201 –> 01:31:16.061
Hayley: So you brought some things when you and Elise came to Nashville.

01:31:16.401 –> 01:31:20.741
Hayley: It’s a literal room in a house that is so small.

01:31:20.741 –> 01:31:23.381
Hayley: I mean, it’s like the corner of this room.

01:31:23.381 –> 01:31:27.021
Hayley: And we have a guitar boat and we have a Rhodes.

01:31:29.041 –> 01:31:32.361
Hayley: And a midi keyboard and a dream.

01:31:32.361 –> 01:31:33.821
Hayley: And that’s us.

01:31:33.821 –> 01:31:43.441
Daniel: Yeah, I mean, because we initially, after the fires, LA was obviously going through a lot and we just needed kind of a break from that.

01:31:43.441 –> 01:31:51.041
Daniel: And so when we talked about coming to Nashville, I just loaded up a couple of things in the car just so I could keep working while I was there.

01:31:51.041 –> 01:31:57.621
Daniel: So it wasn’t really on the radar that we would need a full, you know, studio to be working out of.

01:31:57.621 –> 01:32:01.181
Daniel: And I’m very used to like being in the box and on my laptop.

01:32:01.181 –> 01:32:12.541
Daniel: So we just kind of, a lot of it was just MIDI, a lot of emulation plugins and just throwing a bunch of effects on stuff till it was interesting.

01:32:12.541 –> 01:32:17.701
Hayley: Yeah, we knew there were some songs we would put real drums on and funny.

01:32:17.701 –> 01:32:26.041
Hayley: Zack, Paramore’s drummer, if you don’t know, Zack had bought me a set of drums for my birthday that are so funny.

01:32:26.041 –> 01:32:31.581
Hayley: They’re like this Remo kit that I think was a PR thing, I don’t know how many years ago.

01:32:31.581 –> 01:32:38.341
Hayley: And it’s got this rap with like Lamborghinis all over it and the tag says Pure Sex.

01:32:38.341 –> 01:32:41.061
Hayley: And I was like, this has to make it to the record.

01:32:41.061 –> 01:32:44.801
Hayley: They ended up being the drums that I practiced on for the tracks that we did play.

01:32:45.181 –> 01:32:48.221
Hayley: But we didn’t feel that we needed a ton of extra.

01:32:48.221 –> 01:32:51.281
Hayley: It was so nice to work with beats and samples.

01:32:51.281 –> 01:32:55.061
Hayley: It’s very different from how I typically would make a record with the band.

01:32:56.401 –> 01:33:00.701
Hayley: So I kind of reveled in the bare bones.

01:33:00.701 –> 01:33:03.701
Daniel: Yeah, I think the limitation kind of steered the project.

01:33:04.041 –> 01:33:09.921
Daniel: By the time we decided to make it an actual album, we were already so deep into the songs.

01:33:09.921 –> 01:33:16.281
Daniel: It felt like if we were to go back in and try to retract stuff, it just would kind of kill the spirit of it somehow.

01:33:16.281 –> 01:33:29.861
John Kennedy: Yeah, but I like the idea that you can kind of, in a way, use your limitations to your advantage, but also still have the advantage of being able to augment that with other instruments at a certain point.

01:33:29.861 –> 01:33:31.881
John Kennedy: So you’re not stuck in either commitment.

01:33:31.881 –> 01:33:36.901
Daniel: We had options, but we typically tried to stay as small as we could.

01:33:36.901 –> 01:33:40.481
John Kennedy: Is there anything more we should hear from Parachute before we move on?

01:33:40.481 –> 01:33:46.421
John Kennedy: Because we’ve got some more Patreon questions, but also we have the two questions we ask everybody who comes on Tape Notes this morning.

01:33:46.421 –> 01:33:48.481
Daniel: I feel like that’s the bulk of it there.

01:33:48.481 –> 01:33:49.721
Daniel: We could do some questions.

01:33:49.721 –> 01:33:50.361
John Kennedy: Yeah, cool.

01:33:50.361 –> 01:33:51.081
John Kennedy: Okay.

01:33:51.081 –> 01:33:57.481
John Kennedy: Maybe we should have another quick blast of The Master just so people get the final definitive, maybe somewhere near the end.

01:33:57.481 –> 01:33:57.641
Hayley: Yeah.

01:35:09.353 –> 01:35:12.813
John Kennedy: It’s gonna be a big moment if you get to play that live, isn’t it?

01:35:12.813 –> 01:35:14.853
Hayley: I really can’t wait for that.

01:35:14.853 –> 01:35:15.853
John Kennedy: Amazing.

01:35:15.853 –> 01:35:18.313
John Kennedy: A couple more Patreon questions.

01:35:18.333 –> 01:35:25.093
John Kennedy: One I thought was interesting from Danny who says, how do you approach writing with a fan base so diverse in age?

01:35:25.093 –> 01:35:29.533
John Kennedy: The openness you expressed in Glum hit really hard as someone having similar sentiments.

01:35:29.533 –> 01:35:33.073
John Kennedy: Also fantastic song, a gut-wrenching beautiful musical video.

01:35:33.133 –> 01:35:34.033
Hayley: Oh my God.

01:35:34.033 –> 01:35:35.273
Hayley: Thank you.

01:35:36.573 –> 01:35:38.733
Hayley: I’m really proud of this song.

01:35:39.693 –> 01:35:43.653
Hayley: I feel like this song I’ve been trying to write since I learned to play guitar.

01:35:43.653 –> 01:35:48.313
Hayley: It’s always like those simple ones that I find the hardest.

01:35:49.433 –> 01:35:59.673
Hayley: Writing in a way that hopefully connects to a lot of people is, I just don’t think it’s something you can shoot for on purpose.

01:35:59.673 –> 01:36:00.633
Hayley: At least I can’t.

01:36:01.093 –> 01:36:06.613
Hayley: But I do tend to think if you are honest, most feelings are universal.

01:36:06.613 –> 01:36:10.633
Hayley: It’s just like, how is the way that you communicate it?

01:36:10.633 –> 01:36:11.173
John Kennedy: Wow.

01:36:11.173 –> 01:36:11.973
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:36:11.973 –> 01:36:25.353
John Kennedy: So everybody who comes on Tape Notes, we ask them about what their go-to gear is or a piece of favorite equipment or a technical thing that they maybe couldn’t have made their latest record with or without.

01:36:25.353 –> 01:36:27.893
John Kennedy: So do either of you have such a thing?

01:36:28.313 –> 01:36:32.233
Daniel: I mean, like I referenced in here, I use Output a lot.

01:36:32.813 –> 01:36:33.653
Daniel: I love their stuff.

01:36:33.653 –> 01:36:36.033
Daniel: They also have this thing, Arcade, that I use.

01:36:36.033 –> 01:36:41.013
Daniel: I have, like a lot of my vocal chain will have, I have some like sound toy stuff.

01:36:41.013 –> 01:36:46.873
Daniel: That’s kind of like my, like I like having Microshift on, like especially for chorus, vocal busses.

01:36:46.873 –> 01:36:48.733
Daniel: That’s kind of a standard go-to.

01:36:48.733 –> 01:36:55.633
Daniel: And like I said, the Neural DSP stuff for guitar, I like being able to audition stuff really quickly.

01:36:55.693 –> 01:37:04.793
Daniel: And when you’re working with traditional like amps and miking, it’s like again, me not being a real technical engineer, it’s like can take so much time to get a sound in.

01:37:04.793 –> 01:37:08.273
Daniel: And like the Neural stuff is so good to me.

01:37:08.273 –> 01:37:20.673
Daniel: Like I’m sure there’s purists out there that can hear the difference, but like I kind of favor the ease of use and like just where I just can tweak it till I like it.

01:37:20.853 –> 01:37:34.493
Daniel: And I think I find that efficiency is so helpful for me when I’m trying to just get an idea out rather than wasting an hour trying to mic a amp up and like get the right pedals chain going.

01:37:34.493 –> 01:37:41.133
Daniel: And I don’t know, I just, I prefer speed over pureness, I guess, I don’t know.

01:37:41.133 –> 01:37:41.713
Hayley: I love it.

01:37:41.713 –> 01:37:46.293
Hayley: It’s like you capture lightning in a bottle that way when you have a good idea or something you want to run with.

01:37:46.293 –> 01:37:46.693
Daniel: Yeah.

01:37:46.693 –> 01:37:47.933
Hayley: You’re not tripped up.

01:37:47.933 –> 01:37:52.513
Daniel: Yeah, but beyond that, yeah, it’s just I’m pretty basic.

01:37:53.133 –> 01:37:56.813
Daniel: I like the Valhalla reverb, like I mentioned.

01:37:56.813 –> 01:38:05.413
Daniel: It’s just a lot of, like I was saying earlier, I just like to collect sounds and I collect, I use Splice a lot to pull in sample, random samples and I’ll stretch.

01:38:05.413 –> 01:38:13.313
Daniel: I do a lot in the box of just stretching, pitching stuff up, throwing different like the portal effect on stuff.

01:38:13.513 –> 01:38:16.653
Daniel: My buddy has a company called Teletone.

01:38:16.653 –> 01:38:30.913
Daniel: They make a lot of cool, we use that on a lot of the tracks, it’s very, they only have like 50 or 60 presets on each track, but they’re all samples from like old Junos and Prophets and it’s just a really tasteful selection of sounds.

01:38:30.913 –> 01:38:36.913
Daniel: That I use that a lot for textures and the more key centered stuff.

01:38:36.913 –> 01:38:38.933
Daniel: Yeah, those are kind of my main thing.

01:38:38.933 –> 01:38:41.413
Daniel: And then yeah, the 67 is just like a workhorse for me.

01:38:41.413 –> 01:38:49.533
Daniel: So that’s like the acoustic, all the vocals, anything really that needs, it just kind of like move it around the room.

01:38:49.533 –> 01:38:50.653
Daniel: Can’t go wrong.

01:38:50.653 –> 01:39:00.393
Daniel: But I mean, I even use like, speaking of my laziness, I use like an SM7 on the acoustic sometimes, just because I didn’t want to bother setting up a separate chain.

01:39:00.393 –> 01:39:01.793
Daniel: I just, we had it for the writing room.

01:39:01.793 –> 01:39:05.993
Daniel: So I just plop it on the desk and just play, like kind of like leaned over.

01:39:05.993 –> 01:39:08.573
Daniel: And that some of that stuff ended up on the record.

01:39:08.573 –> 01:39:13.153
Daniel: I just, I don’t know, I’m kind of, I don’t, I love purists.

01:39:13.253 –> 01:39:14.453
Daniel: I love gear heads.

01:39:14.453 –> 01:39:18.053
Daniel: And I’m just not wired that way for some reason.

01:39:19.493 –> 01:39:24.533
Hayley: Dan is like already, I don’t know how or when, but signed up to teach.

01:39:24.533 –> 01:39:29.853
Hayley: I started to learn Pro Tools like years back before I started writing Petals for Armor.

01:39:29.853 –> 01:39:30.893
Hayley: Not for me.

01:39:30.893 –> 01:39:33.033
Hayley: So I’m gonna go for Logic soon.

01:39:33.033 –> 01:39:41.013
Hayley: But I have a GS Mini that I was, Taylor bought me during the self-titled record as a gift.

01:39:41.153 –> 01:39:47.233
Hayley: And I’ve written anything I’ve ever written on that started on guitar, started on that one.

01:39:47.233 –> 01:39:48.673
Hayley: I’ll never get rid of it.

01:39:48.673 –> 01:39:51.633
Hayley: The deader the string sound, the more I like it.

01:39:51.633 –> 01:39:55.193
Hayley: I learned that Damon Albarn, that’s what he uses.

01:39:55.193 –> 01:39:58.153
Hayley: And that was like, I need nothing more.

01:39:58.153 –> 01:40:05.953
Hayley: And then I have an old 59 Les Paul Junior that I got from my Nana’s ex-husband.

01:40:07.933 –> 01:40:19.293
Hayley: And it became the like, if I want to play an electric guitar in the studio, I usually will start on that, even if it doesn’t end up being the sound we want.

01:40:19.293 –> 01:40:24.473
Hayley: But I just don’t, I’ve never, it’s amazing how long I’ve been in studios making records.

01:40:24.473 –> 01:40:28.433
Hayley: And I want tactile experiences.

01:40:28.433 –> 01:40:41.753
Hayley: I love to work with someone who’s so well-versed at working in the box, but like, I either want old shit that has buttons that I understand, and I can see everything on the surface, or I want to play a guitar or a piano, you know?

01:40:41.753 –> 01:40:44.173
Hayley: And everything’s beat-driven for me.

01:40:44.173 –> 01:40:54.613
Hayley: So to have a drum kit around, I don’t have space in my place right now, but I can’t wait to get a drum kit back up, because I write so much just to a rhythm in my head.

01:40:54.613 –> 01:40:55.353
Hayley: Yeah.

01:40:55.353 –> 01:40:57.153
Hayley: I don’t know, I’ve got nothing fancy to tell you.

01:40:57.993 –> 01:40:59.233
John Kennedy: I’m just here.

01:40:59.233 –> 01:41:00.773
John Kennedy: It’s really interesting to hear though.

01:41:01.193 –> 01:41:19.093
John Kennedy: It’s interesting how an instrument can be locked in to a creative urge or whatever, the idea that your voice and the drums could be linked together in terms of how you think, maybe the rhythm of delivering a line or how a line comes into your mind.

01:41:19.093 –> 01:41:21.533
John Kennedy: It comes with a rhythm and built somehow.

01:41:21.533 –> 01:41:22.953
John Kennedy: I think that’s really interesting.

01:41:22.953 –> 01:41:36.873
John Kennedy: The other question we ask everybody who comes on Tape Notes is about advice, whether you’ve learned something over time that you would pass on to other people or something that somebody once said to you that you would pass on in a similar fashion.

01:41:36.873 –> 01:41:46.313
Hayley: I feel like something that I think people are surprised to know about me is how nervous I get to write.

01:41:46.313 –> 01:41:54.853
Hayley: I really have always written with my bandmates or like one or two people in the world.

01:41:55.053 –> 01:42:03.933
Hayley: I don’t really, I’m not used to just walking into a room and throwing things at the wall and seeing what sticks.

01:42:03.933 –> 01:42:11.633
Hayley: And even like working with Dan and Steph on Parachute, it just is a good reminder that no idea is bad, you know?

01:42:11.733 –> 01:42:22.333
Hayley: And sometimes it’s like, it’s the bad ones that will lead you to, you know, sometimes like the joke, the thing that we’re joking about becomes an anchor and really leads us to somewhere new.

01:42:22.673 –> 01:42:32.573
Hayley: And so I’m always trying to challenge myself to really show up and be super present in a studio if it’s not a scenario that I’m like very, very used to.

01:42:32.573 –> 01:42:39.473
Hayley: Because obviously like making a Paramore record, it goes a certain way that I kind of know what to expect.

01:42:39.473 –> 01:42:45.833
Hayley: And I’m kind of only right now getting accustomed to collaborating with other artists.

01:42:45.833 –> 01:42:52.553
Hayley: And that is, you know, I wrote something with David Byrne for this like animated film that’s coming out.

01:42:52.553 –> 01:42:58.073
Hayley: And imagine really never doing writing sessions in your life.

01:42:58.073 –> 01:43:00.273
Hayley: And then David Byrne’s at your house.

01:43:00.273 –> 01:43:07.453
Hayley: And like the thing I was struck by was how willing he was to just fool around on a guitar.

01:43:07.453 –> 01:43:12.553
Hayley: And whether it sounded like shit in the moment, whether it sounded like it was going nowhere.

01:43:12.553 –> 01:43:17.853
Hayley: And then a few hours later, we end up with a song and he’s taught me how to play the guitar part.

01:43:17.853 –> 01:43:20.513
Hayley: And I’m like, oh my God, like you just fiddled around.

01:43:20.573 –> 01:43:22.773
Hayley: And it was like no one was watching.

01:43:22.773 –> 01:43:30.573
Hayley: I’m still 20 years into my career, learning that that’s perfectly, not even just okay, but it is what it is.

01:43:30.573 –> 01:43:34.373
Hayley: And making this record with Dan, it helped me so much.

01:43:34.373 –> 01:43:38.233
Hayley: It gave me a lot of courage to reach out to other artists and be like, what are you up to?

01:43:38.233 –> 01:43:40.633
Hayley: Like, how can I like help?

01:43:40.633 –> 01:43:43.613
Hayley: Or would you want to try this out with me?

01:43:43.673 –> 01:43:47.313
Hayley: So, I don’t know, it’s just more about courage for me, maybe than anything.

01:43:47.313 –> 01:43:57.533
Daniel: Yeah, I think for me, like when I started really collaborating, I was very insecure and very, like I used to over prepare so much.

01:43:57.533 –> 01:44:03.953
Daniel: Like if I had a writing session, I would write like 10 ideas ahead of time, just so I knew I had something in my back pocket.

01:44:03.953 –> 01:44:16.733
Daniel: And what I found over time was, typically in those situations, the artist doesn’t really have an investment in the music, because they’re just kind of jumping on top of something they didn’t have a part of creating.

01:44:16.733 –> 01:44:35.953
Daniel: And some people like the top line tracks, but for more collaborative sessions, it’s so much what I’ve learned is like me getting to the point where I can get my ego out of the way and be willing to risk looking stupid like I was saying earlier and to create a space that someone else feels that same freedom.

01:44:35.953 –> 01:44:45.113
Daniel: Because I feel like there’s like all the best, or at least in my experience, the best sessions come when there’s just like a freedom of movement in the room.

01:44:45.113 –> 01:44:55.853
Daniel: And you have to really work hard to create that, especially as a producer, because it’s such an art that I’m still learning of how to make, especially with new artists, like how do you make them feel comfortable?

01:44:55.853 –> 01:45:00.393
Daniel: How do you make them feel safe to try things, to share what’s really going on in their life?

01:45:00.393 –> 01:45:04.013
Daniel: And because that’s where the real grit and real art lies.

01:45:04.013 –> 01:45:12.413
Daniel: And it’s so hard to consistently create that space, especially for me, who’s, I can be very emotional, but I’m very internal with it.

01:45:12.413 –> 01:45:23.213
Daniel: So I have to work really hard to just get out of my own way and like make sure the artist is as comfortable and feels as safe and heard.

01:45:23.213 –> 01:45:28.793
Daniel: I mean, sometimes sessions, you’ll talk for an hour or two before you even pick up an instrument.

01:45:28.793 –> 01:45:35.193
Daniel: And that time is so crucial, I feel like to creating the environment that real great art can come out of.

01:45:35.733 –> 01:45:39.453
Daniel: And that’s something I’m still learning how to do, you know.

01:45:39.453 –> 01:45:41.333
John Kennedy: Yeah, well keep learning.

01:45:42.873 –> 01:45:43.733
John Kennedy: Thank you so much.

01:45:43.733 –> 01:45:44.173
Daniel: Thank you.

01:45:44.173 –> 01:45:44.673
John Kennedy: Both of you.

01:45:44.953 –> 01:45:46.973
John Kennedy: It’s been absolutely fascinating.

01:45:46.973 –> 01:45:49.453
John Kennedy: We should play Wumble Selection from the album, I think.

01:45:49.453 –> 01:45:49.833
Daniel: Yeah.

01:45:49.833 –> 01:45:53.033
John Kennedy: Of your choice from Ego Death At A Bachelorette Party.

01:45:53.033 –> 01:45:56.913
John Kennedy: We’ve heard various different tracks, but this can be like our outro.

01:45:56.913 –> 01:45:57.953
John Kennedy: What would you go for?

01:45:57.953 –> 01:45:58.773
Daniel: Do you have a…

01:45:58.773 –> 01:46:01.813
Hayley: I kind of want to know what you would go with.

01:46:01.893 –> 01:46:02.813
Daniel: Ice In My OJ?

01:46:02.813 –> 01:46:04.353
Hayley: Yeah, yes.

01:46:04.353 –> 01:46:05.093
John Kennedy: So which one you go for?

01:46:05.093 –> 01:46:06.733
Daniel: We’re going to do Ice In My OJ.

01:46:06.733 –> 01:46:08.193
John Kennedy: Ah, the opening song.

01:46:08.193 –> 01:46:09.313
John Kennedy: Is it still the opening song?

01:46:09.313 –> 01:46:10.373
David: It is, it is.

01:46:10.553 –> 01:46:11.393
John Kennedy: Yeah, this is great.

01:46:11.393 –> 01:46:12.393
Hayley: We locked it in.

01:46:12.393 –> 01:46:13.193
John Kennedy: Fantastic.

01:46:13.193 –> 01:46:14.113
John Kennedy: Thank you again.

01:46:14.113 –> 01:46:15.313
John Kennedy: And this is it then.

01:46:15.313 –> 01:46:16.753
John Kennedy: This is Ice In My OJ.

01:46:18.153 –> 01:46:25.513
Hayley: I’m spinning circles and I can’t deny Floating on your love like a butterfly Thank you for listening.

01:46:25.513 –> 01:46:29.893
John Kennedy: And in particular, thanks to all of you who have signed up to support us on Patreon.

01:46:29.893 –> 01:46:34.413
John Kennedy: I’m just one part of the team that brings you Tape Notes and it relies on your support.

01:46:34.413 –> 01:46:42.393
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01:46:42.393 –> 01:46:46.173
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01:46:46.173 –> 01:46:51.333
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01:46:51.333 –> 01:46:54.873
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01:46:54.873 –> 01:46:56.413
John Kennedy: Once again, thank you for listening.

01:46:56.413 –> 01:46:57.713
John Kennedy: Until next time, goodbye.