Full Transcript:

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John Kennedy: Hello and welcome to Tape Notes, the podcast that looks behind the scenes at the magic of recording and producing music.

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John Kennedy: Every episode, we’ll be reuniting an artist and producer and talking through some of the highlights from their collaboration in the studio.

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John Kennedy: So join us as we lift the lid on the creative process and the inner workings of music production to see what lies beneath.

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John Kennedy: Hello, I’m John Kennedy, and joining me for this episode of Tape Notes are Lorde and producer Jim-E Stack to talk about how they wrote, recorded, and produced the album Virgin.

00:00:40.828 –> 00:00:45.788
John Kennedy: Ella Yelich-O’Connor, aka Lorde, is a singer, songwriter, and producer from New Zealand.

00:00:45.788 –> 00:00:52.588
John Kennedy: Ella first gained recognition in 2013 with her debut EP, The Love Club, and the track Royals, produced by Joel Little.

00:00:52.588 –> 00:00:57.508
John Kennedy: Also released as part of her debut album, Pure Heroine, Royals became a worldwide hit.

00:00:57.508 –> 00:01:04.448
John Kennedy: It went multi-platinum in numerous countries, and won Song of the Year and Best Pop Solo Performance at the 2014 Grammys.

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John Kennedy: Her second and third studio albums, 2017’s Melodrama and 2021’s Solar Power, both produced by Jack Antonoff, received similar praise, blending sophisticated production with Ella’s signature sharp yet raw lyrics and vocal style.

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John Kennedy: Following collaborations with artists including Charli XCX, in June 2025, Lorde released Virgin, working with producer Jim-E Stack, tapping into a whole new kind of emotional upheaval.

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John Kennedy: The record marks a significant shift in Lorde’s musical style and thematic focus, exploring themes of self-discovery and identity.

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John Kennedy: James Stack, better known as Jim-E Stack, is an American songwriter, record producer and DJ.

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John Kennedy: Jim-E’s passion for music came at a young age, when he spent his time playing drums in local groups.

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John Kennedy: But it wasn’t until the age of 16 that he entered the world of production, creating beats influenced by everyone from Timberland to Daft Punk.

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John Kennedy: After releasing an EP and several remixes for artists, including Sky Ferreira and ASAP Rocky, he quickly gained industry attention.

00:02:04.628 –> 00:02:10.808
John Kennedy: In 2014, he released his debut album, Tell Me I Belong, which led to tours with Shlomo and Bonobo.

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John Kennedy: In recent years, Jim-E’s continued to expand his collaborative reach, and has become one of the most in-demand producers of today, sharing his talent on records from artists including Caroline Polacek, Heim Boniver, and most recently, serving as a writer and producer for Lorde on Virgin.

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John Kennedy: Today, I’m joined by Ella and Jim-E at Platoon Studios, and what better way to start than by hearing something from the record.

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John Kennedy: This is What Was That?

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John Kennedy: It’s great to have you both here.

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John Kennedy: Thanks so much for finding the time and sharing that time with us.

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John Kennedy: So today, we’re going to look at three tracks from the album Virgin.

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John Kennedy: And we’re going to start with the first track, which is called What Was That?

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Jim-E: And we’re going to start with the second track, which is called What Was That?

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John Kennedy: And we’re going to start with the third track, which is called What Was That?

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John Kennedy: And sharing that time with us.

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John Kennedy: So today we’re going to look at three tracks from Virgin.

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John Kennedy: When did Virgin start?

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Lorde: Virgin, I would say that Virgin started for real at the end of 2023, although Jim-E and I had been linked up experimenting since kind of early in 2022.

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John Kennedy: So when it started, what does that mean?

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John Kennedy: What does that involve?

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John Kennedy: Is that you sending ideas to Jim-E?

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John Kennedy: Is it you meeting and spending time together?

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John Kennedy: Are you going into a studio straight away?

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John Kennedy: What are you doing?

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Lorde: So we met, we spoke.

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Lorde: I had been such an admirer of Jim-E’s work and really had a sense that he and I could make something really special together.

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Lorde: I was really interested in making what I believe I’m supposed to make at this time in my life, which is these very rich, deep bangers.

00:05:02.568 –> 00:05:07.928
Lorde: Jim-E had this beautiful track record building toward just that.

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Lorde: It started, we talked a lot.

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Lorde: We linked up in the studio pretty quickly.

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Lorde: I was on tour and I was in and out and didn’t really know what I was doing.

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Lorde: And then we met up, I had been in London.

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Lorde: I was here for like four or five months maybe in 2023.

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Lorde: Just sort of trying to work, but also, I don’t know, just having some personal time.

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Lorde: And then I had this plan to link back up with Jim-E when I was in the States and we booked a week together.

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Lorde: And that week, we wrote What Was That?

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Lorde: And we also started Shapeshifter that same week, right?

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Jim-E: I think so, yeah.

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Lorde: And something about that just made me-

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John Kennedy: So this is when now and where would it be?

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Lorde: This is like October 23 in New York.

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Lorde: And yeah, I was like, okay, I think something’s clicking together and let’s see where this goes.

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John Kennedy: Yeah.

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Lorde: And so from there, it feels like the album started.

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Lorde: It’s really what was that that started the album.

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Jim-E: Yeah.

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Jim-E: I think though too, it’s like with an album, or especially one like this, you kind of, it starts before you know it starts, you know, if we like really just think about some songs like David or, you know, that that started before we even knew.

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Jim-E: We didn’t even know that would be part of this.

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Lorde: Totally true.

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Lorde: Yeah.

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Lorde: Late 22 that was.

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Jim-E: And then I just feel like there’s something even too kind of creatively or like spiritually starts before, or that at least for this album, like started before we knew it had started.

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Jim-E: You know, you’re just like come into a new zone creatively and you’re six months after that, you’re like, oh, it actually started six months ago.

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John Kennedy: That’s really interesting though, but the connection is what this is all about in many ways.

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John Kennedy: That’s what we’re trying to, you know, get a little window on, on tape notes in a way, because that connection is so fundamental to creativity and to the resulting album.

00:07:12.188 –> 00:07:21.768
John Kennedy: I don’t know that, because there’s so many times, it feels as if there’s this almost telepathic communication going on between producer and artist and vice versa.

00:07:21.768 –> 00:07:32.848
John Kennedy: And you need to understand each other and understand what talents you have, what direction you’re going in, what you’re trying to express and allow people the space to do all of that.

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John Kennedy: And it’s interesting that, I guess, through hanging out, through communicating, you get an idea of the friendship brewing and that connection being built.

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Jim-E: Yeah.

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Lorde: Totally.

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Lorde: I feel like we are both really those types of musicians as well.

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Lorde: Like, we’re not really working with anyone who we don’t really have a deep, like, personal connection with, you know.

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Lorde: I feel like all of your collaborations come from, yeah, the, like, deep friendships that you have with these people.

00:07:59.788 –> 00:08:02.228
Lorde: And I’m definitely the same.

00:08:02.228 –> 00:08:06.128
Lorde: I, like, yeah, make music with people pretty infrequently.

00:08:06.128 –> 00:08:09.968
Lorde: And, yeah, we’ll be with one person for a long stretch of time.

00:08:10.068 –> 00:08:19.568
Lorde: And, yeah, it really was just about sort of like building this kind of, yeah, shared ideology for what we wanted this album to be.

00:08:19.568 –> 00:08:31.568
Lorde: But also just, like, it becomes this big creative conversation about your whole lives, you know, and some portion of that gets captured in the form of the album.

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Lorde: But it’s pretty all encompassing.

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John Kennedy: Fascinating.

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John Kennedy: Right.

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John Kennedy: We’re going to look at the first of those songs.

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John Kennedy: Favorite Daughter is that song.

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John Kennedy: Maybe we could hear a blast of the master.

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John Kennedy: And then we can work out how you created it.

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John Kennedy: Cool.

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John Kennedy: Just a little taste of Favorite Daughter by Lorde from Virgin.

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John Kennedy: How did this one come about?

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Lorde: Well, I went into Virgin with almost no conceptual framework or any sort of idea about what I wanted to make.

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Lorde: The one thing that I knew was that I wanted it to work on the body, to really have this physicality.

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Lorde: And I think that is what I responded to at first about Jimmie’s production.

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Lorde: There is such an innate physicality to Jimmie Stack’s production, I think.

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John Kennedy: So you wanted the music to have an effect on your body.

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Lorde: Yeah, I wanted rhythm.

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Lorde: I wanted strong drum parts.

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Lorde: And yeah, I think that this definitely…

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Lorde: So a lot of the songs on Virgin did start with these quite simple kind of drum loops that would come from Jimmie that we would then flesh out.

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Lorde: But in going into an album pretty blind like I did with this, not having any sort of like framework of meaning, it was just really about listening to what the songs wanted to be.

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Lorde: And this one is an interesting one because it started, we basically wrote an entire song of melody over the sort of very simple, initial drum loop and piano chords.

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Lorde: But the whole song was complete melodically and not a single lyric, which is like crazy.

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Lorde: And then we sort of like, I was like, oh, I think it’s actually saying this, it wants to be about this.

00:11:31.280 –> 00:11:34.460
Lorde: And then the production sort of started to form.

00:11:34.460 –> 00:11:37.460
Lorde: But I think it’s interesting seeing where we started.

00:11:37.460 –> 00:11:39.920
Jim-E: Yeah, do you want to hear some of that first demo?

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John Kennedy: So did you, yeah, so I was going to say, are there demos, is this working in the studio and building it all up at the same time, or are you going to do sketches?

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Jim-E: Yeah, I mean, this one, I mean, there was like that time we worked at Electric Light in New York in like summer 22, where I had some of the like beginning of this, or this drum beat basically I had made.

00:12:02.420 –> 00:12:04.520
Lorde: Oh, that, wow, I don’t even think of that as being the start.

00:12:04.520 –> 00:12:05.600
Lorde: The start is at your house.

00:12:05.600 –> 00:12:15.060
Jim-E: No, no, absolutely, but just like those drums, they’re just like, oh, it’s like something, just about these like drums I had made is like something to me, I was like, oh, these drums just like say, Ella to me, you know?

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Jim-E: But yeah, like the first, like it didn’t take the first attempt, but yeah, here we go.

00:12:21.700 –> 00:12:24.360
Jim-E: But when it did start to take, this is what it was.

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John Kennedy: So, what are we hearing here?

00:12:41.522 –> 00:12:56.842
Jim-E: So this is basically just like a drum loop beat I made, a Chord PolySix playing super basic chords, and Ella’s vocal on an SM7, just doing some melody.

00:12:56.842 –> 00:12:59.662
Jim-E: And I forget if any other elements come in.

00:12:59.662 –> 00:13:04.642
John Kennedy: And is that just you responding to this beat basically, just coming up with some stuff on the spot?

00:13:04.642 –> 00:13:04.822
John Kennedy: Wow.

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John Kennedy: Because even now, there are all these elements that are kind of realized to a certain extent.

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Lorde: Yeah.

00:13:11.782 –> 00:13:12.982
John Kennedy: Which is quite interesting.

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Lorde: I feel like, I think it was the chorus a little different.

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Jim-E: So we have some piano.

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Lorde: Just nonsense, you know, pulling out.

00:13:27.362 –> 00:13:28.382
John Kennedy: Convincing nonsense, though.

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Jim-E: Yeah, very convincing, very convincing.

00:13:31.062 –> 00:13:31.962
Lorde: That’s what I deal in.

00:13:34.422 –> 00:13:37.142
Jim-E: But yeah, that’s where we started.

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Jim-E: And then we could like go through a few of these.

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Jim-E: But I feel like maybe some lyrics started to come next.

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Jim-E: I feel like the instrumental maybe didn’t change a ton.

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Lorde: Yeah.

00:13:47.622 –> 00:13:50.282
Jim-E: Initially.

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Jim-E: Like the drums ended up being different than these are, but it’s kind of stayed with these drums for a while.

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Lorde: So, a lot of same thing.

00:14:04.082 –> 00:14:04.342
John Kennedy: Yeah.

00:14:04.342 –> 00:14:08.702
John Kennedy: So in that lyric, was that the first lyric that came through?

00:14:08.702 –> 00:14:09.042
John Kennedy: Yeah.

00:14:09.042 –> 00:14:12.322
Lorde: I just all of a sudden was like, I think I’m singing about my mom.

00:14:12.322 –> 00:14:15.822
Lorde: I could hear it before it was there in the lyrics.

00:14:16.422 –> 00:14:25.162
Lorde: And so I tried to have the lyric say what the melody was saying, which is sort of a cool backwards approach.

00:14:25.162 –> 00:14:25.342
John Kennedy: Yeah.

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Jim-E: And a lot of those stayed the same.

00:14:31.122 –> 00:14:32.602
Jim-E: But yeah, the only thing, still the chorus.

00:14:32.602 –> 00:14:35.602
Lorde: And that, just the warmth of that polysix, like…

00:14:35.602 –> 00:14:37.702
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:14:37.742 –> 00:14:42.942
Lorde: It’s definitely like an early touchstone of Virgin.

00:14:42.942 –> 00:14:44.262
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:14:44.262 –> 00:14:47.422
Lorde: Grew to be, you know, like an absolutely crucial…

00:14:47.862 –> 00:14:48.222
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:14:48.222 –> 00:14:52.042
Jim-E: There’s PolySix across basically every song on the album.

00:14:52.042 –> 00:14:52.782
Jim-E: But yeah, it’s like that.

00:14:52.782 –> 00:14:58.722
Jim-E: I mean, I’ll flip through a few of these early versions, then we can get to the actually where it ended up.

00:14:58.722 –> 00:15:02.382
Jim-E: But again, a lot of the same stuff here.

00:15:03.962 –> 00:15:06.202
John Kennedy: And is the piano a real piano or is it?

00:15:06.422 –> 00:15:10.222
Jim-E: Yeah, that was just an upright of my studio.

00:15:10.222 –> 00:15:10.502
Jim-E: Okay.

00:15:10.502 –> 00:15:13.062
Jim-E: Then we started to change up a bit here.

00:15:14.362 –> 00:15:17.642
Jim-E: I mean, this is just some evolution here basically.

00:15:19.242 –> 00:15:21.122
Jim-E: And this is when we started bringing some Moog.

00:15:22.002 –> 00:15:29.222
Jim-E: Just kind of bass stabs and some little vocal samples.

00:15:32.022 –> 00:15:46.422
Jim-E: So I mean, I think the core of what the song is and what the production was, that kind of always remained intact in just being this rolling drum beat that had a lot of that youthful feeling to it.

00:15:46.422 –> 00:15:51.522
Jim-E: And then it was a lot of, I don’t know, just getting the right kind of tones and sounds around that.

00:15:51.542 –> 00:15:55.462
Jim-E: That’s really speak properly to where the lyrics were taking us.

00:15:55.462 –> 00:15:56.602
Lorde: Yeah, no, totally.

00:15:56.602 –> 00:15:56.862
Lorde: I know.

00:15:56.862 –> 00:16:00.002
Lorde: I feel like this is an interesting production on a number of levels.

00:16:00.002 –> 00:16:17.102
Lorde: I feel like the way I am as a producer is quite, I almost look at it like what I imagine being a screenwriter is like, all of the sort of action of the song or the stage play, like that’s all really thought about by me.

00:16:17.262 –> 00:16:21.042
Lorde: The characters that come on and come off in the form of different sounds.

00:16:24.262 –> 00:16:34.282
Lorde: It’s a hallmark of my production that I am always trying to use the existing pieces where possible.

00:16:35.782 –> 00:16:39.462
Lorde: I’m not really one for needless innovation sonically.

00:16:40.782 –> 00:16:44.682
Lorde: If something’s doing it here, let’s have that same thing do it over here.

00:16:45.602 –> 00:16:53.182
Jim-E: Yeah, I remember I really just love that principle of yours in general, that I feel like that really opened my mind up.

00:16:53.182 –> 00:17:10.162
Jim-E: Just production wise in general, beyond even just the stuff we did on the album, but just things like where I feel like prior I would make a song and you’d have a snare in the verse and then maybe there’d be a little fill before the chorus, you’re like, oh, and let’s get a different special snare.

00:17:10.442 –> 00:17:11.102
John Kennedy: Yeah, yeah.

00:17:11.102 –> 00:17:13.522
Jim-E: It would be like, no, use the same snare.

00:17:13.522 –> 00:17:15.402
Lorde: Just go around and take all your tools away.

00:17:15.402 –> 00:17:17.862
John Kennedy: So it’s almost like this is the cast.

00:17:17.862 –> 00:17:18.562
Jim-E: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:17:18.562 –> 00:17:19.442
John Kennedy: This is the scenery.

00:17:19.982 –> 00:17:21.262
John Kennedy: No, this is the set.

00:17:21.262 –> 00:17:22.142
Lorde: Totally.

00:17:22.142 –> 00:17:39.122
Lorde: The other thing about it with this song was being like, okay, the story is coming through that is about childhood and is based in this very young, vulnerable part of you and then a more grown up part of you comes through.

00:17:39.122 –> 00:17:52.202
Lorde: Just figuring out the ways to subliminally show this through the production and do it in the way that you would use language trying to do it with the sounds.

00:17:52.202 –> 00:18:06.682
Lorde: I feel like it’s a cool mix, the song of like, yeah, really childlike in certain ways and then very, there’s sort of like this violence sometimes and yeah, just all the like different ways of achieving that are really cool, I think.

00:18:06.682 –> 00:18:17.382
Jim-E: Yeah, and I think I was thinking about, we were like listening back to some early versions and there’s this one that sounded really sick to us both.

00:18:19.522 –> 00:18:31.762
Jim-E: This is just instrumental, but it’s like a lot more muscular than where the production for the song ended up, and I feel like that was totally right for the subject matter.

00:18:31.762 –> 00:18:37.922
Lorde: Yeah, it was interesting because like for both of us, like we kind of would have left it here.

00:18:37.922 –> 00:18:38.782
Lorde: This is it to me.

00:18:38.782 –> 00:18:40.682
Lorde: Like I just, this is so cool.

00:18:40.682 –> 00:18:41.582
Jim-E: Totally.

00:18:41.582 –> 00:18:56.082
Lorde: But we found when you overlaid this very, quite intense song about my relationship with my mom, it really, we were sacrificing the song for the good of the production.

00:18:56.082 –> 00:19:04.862
Lorde: And I think that’s sort of what made the song so difficult to produce was actually really having to be like, and we have to be different to the song here.

00:19:04.862 –> 00:19:06.202
Jim-E: Absolutely.

00:19:06.202 –> 00:19:08.302
Lorde: Because there, yeah, it was interesting.

00:19:08.302 –> 00:19:18.562
Lorde: It was like really, you tow the sline with the, with the muscular quality and the intensity, and all of a sudden it would, it would sort of repel you or something.

00:19:18.562 –> 00:19:22.862
Lorde: You would get cast out and you’d have to, okay, how do we bring them?

00:19:22.862 –> 00:19:34.202
Lorde: How do we not have the listener defend against the song because of the, the full body, you know, shit we’re trying to do with the Moog and the, you know.

00:19:34.202 –> 00:19:38.822
Jim-E: No, no, this stuff is like, it’s awesome, but it is like kind of, it’s like dirty and sludgy and like.

00:19:38.822 –> 00:19:42.602
Lorde: It got a little bit dark, a little bit sludgy and these drums, I love them so much.

00:19:42.602 –> 00:19:46.902
Jim-E: I’m still like, wow, like, maybe, maybe we’ll use them.

00:19:46.902 –> 00:19:48.062
Jim-E: There’s an alternate version.

00:19:48.122 –> 00:19:53.542
Lorde: But it was, but yeah, it was, they had just got a bit, it was like all mids, you know.

00:19:53.682 –> 00:20:14.762
Jim-E: Yeah, and I think that’s like something we like really, I don’t know, just really made sure we, I mean, we can get into the actual production now, but like made sure we did across the album, is make sure the sonic, just like tone of each song and the feeling is really speaking to and reflecting the lyrics, like not just like sounding cool, you know.

00:20:14.762 –> 00:20:20.742
Jim-E: And like, yeah, just listening to the instrumental of that, I’m not sure that that’s like, oh, mom song.

00:20:20.742 –> 00:20:22.202
Lorde: No, I love that song.

00:20:22.202 –> 00:20:23.942
Jim-E: I mean, same.

00:20:23.942 –> 00:20:25.502
John Kennedy: How was that drum loop created?

00:20:25.502 –> 00:20:27.322
John Kennedy: I mean, how was your approach?

00:20:27.322 –> 00:20:42.242
Jim-E: Yeah, so that original one, I mean, that was just a bunch of different sounds and stuff like chopped up, kind of not a dissimilar approach from what we ended up doing on the actual drums, but I’ll just like, so.

00:20:42.242 –> 00:20:47.122
John Kennedy: Well, maybe you could switch to the actual drums and then explain how that was created.

00:20:47.122 –> 00:20:54.102
Jim-E: So here’s our, you know, these are the main drums throughout this song.

00:20:54.102 –> 00:21:09.182
Jim-E: And again, like, I think a big thing, certainly with this song, especially the album, was really like kind of finding a groove that felt good and rolled and that the song could evolve over, you know, and not kind of breaking things up too much and just having like some consistency to it.

00:21:09.182 –> 00:21:15.442
Jim-E: I think that was like a big thing you talked about early on, was like, you know, wanting some repeated beats like that.

00:21:16.422 –> 00:21:29.682
Jim-E: But yeah, so I subbed out like a lot of those drum samples for we recorded a drum machine, it’s the CR-8000, and then it’s basically all just like processed and chopped drum machine instead of like a bunch of different samples.

00:21:30.542 –> 00:21:40.362
Jim-E: But so to go through, you know, this is really like the basis of it all, very simple, kind of classic, has that like youthful feeling to it though in the rhythm.

00:21:40.362 –> 00:21:51.882
Jim-E: But to just get here, with just really some minor effects and distortion and like gating, sounds super different.

00:21:54.002 –> 00:21:59.782
Jim-E: And then Devil Lock is just something that kind of put on everything, that kind of cranks it up, pulls it all together a bit more.

00:22:01.562 –> 00:22:08.542
Jim-E: And then Decimort just makes it sound, I don’t know, messed up in a way we love.

00:22:08.542 –> 00:22:09.642
Lorde: Cucked.

00:22:09.642 –> 00:22:13.922
John Kennedy: Because one of the things that I like about it is there’s this kind of softness to it as well.

00:22:13.922 –> 00:22:14.482
Jim-E: Totally.

00:22:14.482 –> 00:22:19.742
John Kennedy: So that it’s there, it’s consistent, but it doesn’t annihilate you.

00:22:19.742 –> 00:22:21.502
Jim-E: Yeah, it’s not like beating you over the head.

00:22:21.502 –> 00:22:28.602
Lorde: And we sort of had more annihilating versions and it was just this thing of being like, we have to let the song breathe.

00:22:28.602 –> 00:22:31.502
Jim-E: We have this little percussion loop over it too.

00:22:31.522 –> 00:22:33.062
Jim-E: It sounds like it’s breathing or something.

00:22:33.062 –> 00:22:36.982
Jim-E: A lot of Soundshift is kind of like a favorite to mine.

00:22:36.982 –> 00:22:39.502
Jim-E: Soundshift is like the best plugin ever.

00:22:39.502 –> 00:22:44.682
Jim-E: But this was originally like, that’s the original drum machine clap.

00:22:44.682 –> 00:22:49.242
Jim-E: Then we pitched the way down, spread it out to the side.

00:22:49.242 –> 00:22:52.002
Jim-E: This is some EQ.

00:22:53.062 –> 00:23:01.002
Jim-E: But just kind of doing basic stuff, I think with the drum part to make it lift just barely enough.

00:23:01.002 –> 00:23:03.902
Jim-E: Again, using as few tools possible to do it.

00:23:03.902 –> 00:23:06.102
Jim-E: And for that, sorry, back to the drum.

00:23:06.102 –> 00:23:09.122
Jim-E: So it’s just hi-hat at the chorus, basically.

00:23:12.382 –> 00:23:13.902
Jim-E: Keeping it simple, super spare.

00:23:14.762 –> 00:23:17.422
Jim-E: We have this guy, which I love.

00:23:17.422 –> 00:23:18.342
John Kennedy: What is that?

00:23:18.642 –> 00:23:20.062
Jim-E: It’s a crazy percussion.

00:23:20.502 –> 00:23:21.662
Lorde: It’s a screech.

00:23:21.662 –> 00:23:27.862
Jim-E: And what’s actually funny, yeah, it’s a nice little abrasive touch.

00:23:27.862 –> 00:23:35.942
Jim-E: But it’s funny, even in ending up back here, I was reminded of just throwing together some of these old versions when we did like the fully different drum beat then section.

00:23:36.002 –> 00:23:37.962
Jim-E: Should we play that?

00:23:37.962 –> 00:23:39.702
Lorde: Yeah, we were going crazy.

00:23:39.702 –> 00:23:40.742
Jim-E: Yeah, this is like a full…

00:23:40.762 –> 00:23:41.802
Jim-E: We were fully going crazy.

00:23:41.822 –> 00:23:42.442
Jim-E: Let’s just redo it.

00:23:52.342 –> 00:23:54.902
Lorde: We were trying everything at this point.

00:23:54.902 –> 00:24:01.162
Jim-E: Again, just like you’re saying, just being super spare, like it’s just these kind of patty sensitive, it’s just drums, like how do we maximize it?

00:24:01.162 –> 00:24:03.342
Jim-E: Like is it changing some drums up?

00:24:03.442 –> 00:24:05.582
Lorde: It was too decadent, I was laughing.

00:24:05.582 –> 00:24:10.302
Jim-E: Yeah, it’s completely distracts from the song, I think like especially here.

00:24:17.262 –> 00:24:18.342
Lorde: I mean…

00:24:18.502 –> 00:24:20.902
Jim-E: But that’s, I mean, it sounds cool, but that’s where the little crazy curse came from.

00:24:20.902 –> 00:24:28.762
John Kennedy: It’s interesting though, because it can be quite easy to go to town on that kind of stuff, get lost in the sound and really enjoy it.

00:24:30.642 –> 00:24:36.402
John Kennedy: But it’s hard to then realize, oh, we spent hours, if not days working on that kind of thing.

00:24:36.762 –> 00:24:39.542
John Kennedy: It’s not right, it doesn’t do what we want it to do.

00:24:39.542 –> 00:24:47.002
Jim-E: Totally, and you can trick yourself in a thing, like, oh, well, if we put a whole day into reprogramming drums, it must be the right thing.

00:24:47.002 –> 00:24:50.442
Jim-E: And then you listen to the next thing, you’re like, nope, this doesn’t work at all.

00:24:50.442 –> 00:25:01.442
Lorde: I feel like we were both quite good on this album at being quite merciless with those sorts of things, just really being quite rugged with the mutes, just killing darlings.

00:25:01.442 –> 00:25:03.782
Jim-E: Yeah, totally, killing darlings is huge.

00:25:04.022 –> 00:25:05.722
Lorde: And sometimes it hurt, I feel like.

00:25:05.862 –> 00:25:17.802
Lorde: But sometimes, I’m such a muter, I’m always trying to get down to a very pure, essential version of a song and-

00:25:17.802 –> 00:25:21.162
Jim-E: I feel like that’s just been inherent to your production since day one.

00:25:21.162 –> 00:25:22.522
Lorde: Totally, yeah.

00:25:22.522 –> 00:25:24.702
Lorde: I’m always trying to take away.

00:25:24.702 –> 00:25:28.402
Lorde: And yeah, it was a cool piece of virgin for sure.

00:25:28.402 –> 00:25:30.722
Lorde: I feel like you really got with the mission.

00:25:30.722 –> 00:25:30.982
Lorde: Yeah.

00:25:30.982 –> 00:25:41.382
Jim-E: Well, that was something to me that I felt like, I remember you just talking about early on and making 7-year-first album and you’re just muting a scary amount that like freaked people out and I was like, wow.

00:25:41.382 –> 00:25:43.822
Lorde: I love to make producers like…

00:25:43.822 –> 00:25:46.262
Jim-E: But that’s when I was like, sick, I want to do that.

00:25:46.262 –> 00:25:47.582
Jim-E: That’s like just having nothing in it.

00:25:47.582 –> 00:25:48.542
Lorde: Lorde bearing pillars.

00:25:48.542 –> 00:25:56.962
Lorde: We talked a lot about Lorde bearing pillars only, like what happens if it’s only Lorde bearing pieces making up this house.

00:25:57.762 –> 00:26:03.022
Jim-E: But then I’ll just go through the stuff we kind of added like beyond just the drums.

00:26:03.022 –> 00:26:06.502
Jim-E: So just kind of from low frequencies up.

00:26:06.502 –> 00:26:10.102
Jim-E: It was just a Moog Rogue sub bass, super simple.

00:26:12.502 –> 00:26:18.602
Jim-E: Yeah, and it’s just a little distortion, side-chaining a bit to the kick.

00:26:22.022 –> 00:26:27.122
Jim-E: And then just kind of these then Moog notes, just like outlining the chords on top of that.

00:26:37.023 –> 00:26:38.843
Lorde: We did a lot of this one note.

00:26:38.843 –> 00:26:39.863
Jim-E: Yeah, totally.

00:26:39.863 –> 00:26:41.643
Jim-E: I was just going to say, yeah.

00:26:41.643 –> 00:26:44.543
Jim-E: That was I think a big thing across a few songs.

00:26:44.543 –> 00:26:46.463
Jim-E: We did some on, what was that too?

00:26:46.463 –> 00:26:55.863
Jim-E: But certainly with this song, it’s even going back to the minimalism thing, just as few notes as possible in the chords.

00:26:56.263 –> 00:27:00.403
Jim-E: With this, it’s like the root note and the third or tenth or whatever.

00:27:00.403 –> 00:27:01.503
Jim-E: It’s like that’s it.

00:27:03.383 –> 00:27:04.563
Jim-E: Nothing was crowded.

00:27:04.563 –> 00:27:08.743
Jim-E: It just everything I feel like had room was just barely enough.

00:27:08.763 –> 00:27:10.083
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:27:10.083 –> 00:27:13.603
Jim-E: I think both kinds of music like you and I are so drawn to.

00:27:13.603 –> 00:27:13.943
Lorde: Yeah.

00:27:13.943 –> 00:27:19.043
Lorde: Also, it gives the song that is set in childhood, a feeling of like naivete.

00:27:19.663 –> 00:27:26.323
Lorde: When you’re restricting access to a lot of the knowledge, it sort of inherently has a young feeling.

00:27:26.323 –> 00:27:27.283
Jim-E: Totally.

00:27:27.563 –> 00:27:29.663
John Kennedy: Are they all being created in the box?

00:27:29.823 –> 00:27:30.283
Jim-E: No.

00:27:31.823 –> 00:27:35.643
Jim-E: This is basically, I honestly barely thought about that with this song.

00:27:35.643 –> 00:27:37.863
Jim-E: This is basically all stuff recorded.

00:27:37.863 –> 00:27:40.583
Jim-E: I mean, edited, chopped, all that by all means.

00:27:40.583 –> 00:27:48.403
Jim-E: But the drums were in the box originally, but then we did the CR 8000 stuff.

00:27:49.623 –> 00:27:54.223
Jim-E: Then synth-wise, the Moog Rogue, that’s like my favorite synth.

00:27:54.223 –> 00:27:56.583
Jim-E: Sad to have to tell people about it on the podcast.

00:27:56.763 –> 00:28:01.243
Jim-E: It’s like $800 and it’s the best Moog synth.

00:28:01.243 –> 00:28:11.143
Jim-E: But it was basically just that and PolySix and MiniMoog making up mostly the harmonic info.

00:28:11.183 –> 00:28:12.083
Jim-E: I’m going to start bringing in more stuff.

00:28:12.083 –> 00:28:12.943
Lorde: What about the kids?

00:28:12.943 –> 00:28:13.423
Lorde: Bring in the kids?

00:28:13.423 –> 00:28:14.643
Jim-E: Yeah, totally.

00:28:14.643 –> 00:28:15.903
Jim-E: Where are they?

00:28:15.903 –> 00:28:19.703
Jim-E: I remember bringing this in and I was like, oh, well, I might hate this.

00:28:19.843 –> 00:28:20.463
Jim-E: You love it.

00:28:20.463 –> 00:28:22.663
Jim-E: I was like, oh, thank God.

00:28:29.943 –> 00:28:30.963
John Kennedy: So what are the kids?

00:28:30.963 –> 00:28:32.863
John Kennedy: Are they actual recordings of kids?

00:28:33.443 –> 00:28:37.703
Jim-E: I mean, just a couple sample things put together and chopped.

00:28:37.703 –> 00:28:39.343
Lorde: Sounds like kids playing to me.

00:28:39.703 –> 00:28:41.123
Lorde: But it’s also kind of violent.

00:28:41.223 –> 00:28:44.163
Lorde: There’s something, some tension to it.

00:28:44.163 –> 00:28:48.543
Jim-E: I think two other chopped like that, they’re not reverbed out and made soft and palatable.

00:28:48.543 –> 00:28:50.563
Jim-E: It’s just like gone off.

00:28:50.563 –> 00:28:51.303
Lorde: Totally.

00:28:51.303 –> 00:28:58.203
Lorde: That’s the kind of thing that I would always accentuate on this album rather than going like the wafty version.

00:28:58.203 –> 00:29:00.263
Lorde: I’d be like, no, no, super dry.

00:29:00.323 –> 00:29:01.923
Jim-E: Yeah, hard chop.

00:29:01.923 –> 00:29:03.083
John Kennedy: Yeah.

00:29:03.083 –> 00:29:06.163
John Kennedy: Were you specifically looking for a kid sound?

00:29:06.163 –> 00:29:10.763
John Kennedy: Because it fits the story or it fits the sense of what you’re talking about.

00:29:10.763 –> 00:29:18.523
John Kennedy: No, and to have noises or sounds that subconsciously connect to that, is quite an interesting choice.

00:29:18.523 –> 00:29:19.943
John Kennedy: No, but was it a conscious choice?

00:29:19.943 –> 00:29:20.943
John Kennedy: It’s like that would get.

00:29:20.943 –> 00:29:21.883
Jim-E: It was just like a thing.

00:29:21.883 –> 00:29:24.623
Jim-E: I’ve heard this for years, right, before you even meet me.

00:29:24.643 –> 00:29:28.103
Jim-E: Yeah, it was just like in the beat originally, and I was like scared to unmute it.

00:29:28.103 –> 00:29:30.623
Jim-E: I was like, oh, she’s going to think this is lame.

00:29:30.923 –> 00:29:31.883
Jim-E: But I loved it.

00:29:31.883 –> 00:29:33.643
Jim-E: Yeah, and then it like totally clicked.

00:29:33.783 –> 00:29:36.163
Lorde: And yeah, for the meaning to be linked up in that way.

00:29:36.523 –> 00:29:39.243
Jim-E: Yeah, and I mean, I was such a sucker for it.

00:29:39.243 –> 00:29:52.563
Jim-E: But then, yeah, I mean, again, just I think so much of the song really is just kind of like building, kind of like maximizing just the minimal chord content with a bunch of layers and stuff.

00:29:52.723 –> 00:30:00.123
Jim-E: And so like a big, yeah, way of doing that was just kind of like little subtly different sounds layered one on top of the other.

00:30:00.123 –> 00:30:03.603
Jim-E: Then here’s some like more PolySix layers I put down.

00:30:03.603 –> 00:30:04.363
Jim-E: It’s just in the pre.

00:30:04.363 –> 00:30:14.583
Jim-E: And so like this is a thing where just kind of to give stuff some dimension and, you know, depth and stuff like that.

00:30:14.583 –> 00:30:19.623
Jim-E: Like these are just super simple chords on the PolySix, but played through an amp.

00:30:20.163 –> 00:30:26.663
Jim-E: So it just gives it, you know, it has that little like color and buzz and stuff in it.

00:30:28.063 –> 00:30:29.663
Jim-E: So it just gives it a little lift.

00:30:29.663 –> 00:30:35.803
John Kennedy: A real instrument that you’re putting through the amp, recording and then putting it back into your recording.

00:30:35.803 –> 00:30:37.303
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:30:37.303 –> 00:30:39.363
Jim-E: And nothing like fancy about it at all.

00:30:39.363 –> 00:30:44.203
Jim-E: But again, just kind of finding like the most subtle way to give it some dimension.

00:30:46.523 –> 00:30:52.483
Jim-E: And then I think like the kind of next big element for us was just the PolySix ARP.

00:30:52.483 –> 00:30:53.063
Lorde: Oh man.

00:30:53.063 –> 00:30:53.423
Lorde: Okay.

00:30:53.423 –> 00:31:00.863
Lorde: This ARP was I feel like definitely a cornerstone of the language of this album.

00:31:00.863 –> 00:31:05.903
Lorde: You know, Jim-E had been into the PolySix for a while, right?

00:31:05.903 –> 00:31:11.863
Lorde: You’d been kind of putting it on everything without me really having an understanding of what I was hearing.

00:31:12.123 –> 00:31:28.883
Jim-E: It was just a synth that I played one at a friend’s and it was, I don’t know like a ton about the history of it, but my understanding is it came I think maybe like in parallel or maybe a couple of years after the Juno, but it was like a worse, like way cheap version.

00:31:28.883 –> 00:31:29.703
Jim-E: It’s mono.

00:31:29.703 –> 00:31:31.783
Jim-E: It’s like a way, it’s not a very rich sound.

00:31:31.783 –> 00:31:45.383
Jim-E: It’s just like so basic and cheap, but in such a like pure way, it just doesn’t, it just doesn’t feel like it’s trying to like be anything all that dramatic or, you know, it’s not like it has some like busting low end or like, you know, slicing top.

00:31:45.383 –> 00:31:47.283
Jim-E: It just is this raw sound.

00:31:47.423 –> 00:31:51.563
Jim-E: And I really gravitate towards sounds like that that are just simple and-

00:31:51.563 –> 00:31:52.863
Lorde: It’s very pure.

00:31:52.863 –> 00:31:54.643
Jim-E: Yeah, small even.

00:31:54.683 –> 00:31:59.903
Lorde: Yeah, so anyway, you were like putting it on everything and I was kind of getting familiar with it as a texture.

00:31:59.903 –> 00:32:15.183
Lorde: And then I remember we were working on this and, yeah, Jim-E just starts playing this like crazy kind of arping line on the PolySix and it just like jumped out of the song.

00:32:15.183 –> 00:32:16.763
Lorde: It felt so-

00:32:17.783 –> 00:32:19.943
Lorde: I remember calling it Guilty Pleasure.

00:32:19.943 –> 00:32:31.403
Lorde: It just had this like yumminess that felt like, I was like, whoa, is that allowed to be in this like sanctimonious like song about my like relationship with my parent?

00:32:31.403 –> 00:32:39.503
Lorde: It just sounded like the yummy like pop music of the kind of mid-2000s that we grew up on.

00:32:39.563 –> 00:32:40.103
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:32:40.103 –> 00:32:49.983
Lorde: Instantly, I was like, yeah, like that is just the richness and rawness and kind of dancing on the edge of poor taste.

00:32:49.983 –> 00:32:54.563
Lorde: Like that felt like something that wanted to be happening in this music.

00:32:54.563 –> 00:32:59.563
Lorde: And that really sort of like, I was like, hang on, what is this PolySix?

00:32:59.563 –> 00:33:05.203
Lorde: And then that became truly a cornerstone of the whole record.

00:33:05.203 –> 00:33:12.743
Lorde: And PolySix is on almost everything and often takes kind of like center stage in the way that it does here.

00:33:12.743 –> 00:33:12.843
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:33:12.843 –> 00:33:14.263
Jim-E: And this is probably like the first example.

00:33:14.403 –> 00:33:15.383
Jim-E: I’ll play with drums.

00:33:15.383 –> 00:33:16.983
Jim-E: Maybe second here.

00:33:19.203 –> 00:33:20.323
Jim-E: Right here.

00:33:24.463 –> 00:33:26.023
Lorde: Like that’s filthy.

00:33:27.483 –> 00:33:28.723
Lorde: Almost is not allowed.

00:33:28.723 –> 00:33:37.483
Lorde: I’m like singing about this crazy subject, but it’s so activating on the body.

00:33:38.863 –> 00:33:40.243
Lorde: Takes you completely out of your head.

00:33:40.563 –> 00:33:41.843
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:33:41.843 –> 00:33:42.603
Lorde: I just-

00:33:42.603 –> 00:33:44.043
John Kennedy: Can you solo it for us?

00:33:44.043 –> 00:33:45.043
Jim-E: Absolutely.

00:33:45.043 –> 00:33:46.603
Jim-E: It would be my pleasure.

00:33:49.863 –> 00:33:53.723
Lorde: I mean, that’s nice.

00:34:07.217 –> 00:34:21.097
Jim-E: And this was another thing to that I feel like it could only be PolySix, but it being like a mono synth, it’s so fun to do a part like that and then just double it to make it stereo.

00:34:21.157 –> 00:34:22.817
Jim-E: So it’s just like this.

00:34:25.557 –> 00:34:36.657
Jim-E: And then just filling in the other side with it, and then things get slightly out of phase or maybe slightly are out of tune with one another, just building stuff from scratch to make it stereo.

00:34:36.817 –> 00:34:39.437
Jim-E: I think is like a cool thing with the PolySix.

00:34:41.157 –> 00:34:49.877
Jim-E: And then like effects wise on that for the heads, I think it was mainly just the culture vulture we put on it.

00:34:49.877 –> 00:34:52.857
Jim-E: So that’s what it was when we recorded it in mind.

00:34:53.977 –> 00:34:54.497
John Kennedy: Right, okay.

00:34:54.497 –> 00:34:57.177
Jim-E: Then we put that on it and it really gives it some bite.

00:35:00.417 –> 00:35:01.497
Lorde: It destroys me.

00:35:02.417 –> 00:35:03.857
Lorde: I could cry lifting to just that.

00:35:03.857 –> 00:35:06.737
Lorde: Like I don’t understand it at all, but I could.

00:35:07.897 –> 00:35:08.897
Jim-E: Yeah, so I feel like…

00:35:08.897 –> 00:35:10.637
John Kennedy: More plugins as well on top of that?

00:35:10.637 –> 00:35:11.117
Jim-E: Yeah, let’s see.

00:35:11.117 –> 00:35:17.837
Jim-E: I mean, it’s all like from there, that’s probably like doing most of the culture vultures doing most of like the heavy lifting in terms of like the tone of it.

00:35:17.837 –> 00:35:24.357
Jim-E: But then the other stuff that, yes, this is like with nothing then on the bus.

00:35:27.097 –> 00:35:30.177
Jim-E: It’s a capoteir, like giving it some more juice and cut.

00:35:30.177 –> 00:35:32.397
Jim-E: I kind of always use this E setting.

00:35:32.397 –> 00:35:36.317
Jim-E: I don’t know what any of these stand for, but this one always just slices a bit more.

00:35:37.757 –> 00:35:41.097
Jim-E: Little flanger, kind of bring it back a little.

00:35:43.457 –> 00:35:47.517
Jim-E: Some EQ, this is best EQ for me.

00:35:47.517 –> 00:35:55.637
Jim-E: Again, just kind of like, yeah, I love just like the broad strokes with the 550 where it’s just like three bands, just crank it or turn it down.

00:35:55.697 –> 00:35:59.277
Jim-E: It’s just like no small move is being made.

00:35:59.277 –> 00:36:05.017
Jim-E: And then some FilterFreak I think because we do do some automation eventually here.

00:36:10.737 –> 00:36:12.237
Jim-E: And then just some reverb.

00:36:13.777 –> 00:36:15.357
Jim-E: Pretty basic stuff.

00:36:16.557 –> 00:36:32.237
Jim-E: But yeah, and then I think, let’s see, I mean, what the next kind of big move, you know, in terms of just really like helping the production and stuff along, I feel like it’s just all kind of like starts to come together here at the second verse.

00:36:32.237 –> 00:36:34.117
Jim-E: We’ll just play through some of this.

00:36:34.117 –> 00:36:36.217
Jim-E: We have things like Dev’s guitar.

00:36:36.217 –> 00:36:37.697
Lorde: Oh, yeah.

00:36:37.697 –> 00:36:39.717
Jim-E: And just some little, like, also destroy.

00:36:39.717 –> 00:36:40.077
Jim-E: Bye, guys.

00:36:46.949 –> 00:36:47.909
Jim-E: Mm, so good.

00:36:47.909 –> 00:36:48.469
Lorde: So pretty.

00:36:48.469 –> 00:36:49.769
Lorde: I remember just freaking out when you played that.

00:36:49.769 –> 00:36:55.449
Lorde: And we recorded so much dev stuff, and it was sort of hard to prune it all back, but-

00:36:55.449 –> 00:36:56.489
Jim-E: Yeah, everything was amazing.

00:36:56.489 –> 00:36:58.929
Lorde: Yeah, there’s a couple of heavy-heading bits.

00:37:12.389 –> 00:37:13.789
Jim-E: This is my favorite part of the song, probably.

00:37:21.809 –> 00:37:25.309
Jim-E: I think you actually have to, like, is it all in the box or out of the box?

00:37:25.309 –> 00:37:30.669
Jim-E: But it’s the one thing in the box, is these strings I did in contact.

00:37:30.829 –> 00:37:33.249
Jim-E: Just for a little heart.

00:37:33.249 –> 00:37:39.169
Lorde: Which we kind of said is a virgin thing, like, you know, some fake ass strings.

00:37:46.269 –> 00:37:46.469
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:37:46.469 –> 00:37:46.669
Jim-E: And then-

00:37:47.109 –> 00:37:47.829
Lorde: And then Andrew.

00:37:47.829 –> 00:37:50.809
Jim-E: And then Andrew is like the next big thing.

00:37:50.809 –> 00:37:59.709
Jim-E: So my friend, this was the first thing Andrew played on Andrew Aged, who’s just an incredible human being and guitar player, and has such a unique and specific tone.

00:37:59.709 –> 00:38:02.969
Jim-E: I feel like he was just such a crucial part of the record.

00:38:02.969 –> 00:38:04.589
Lorde: A crucial part of this album, absolutely.

00:38:04.589 –> 00:38:14.649
Lorde: And this was, yeah, I think I had said that, yeah, we just, yeah, we decided that he might be someone cool to get in.

00:38:14.649 –> 00:38:24.349
Lorde: You knew him and this was the first song that he played on for the album, and he ended up playing on, I think, six or seven or eight songs.

00:38:24.349 –> 00:38:32.349
Lorde: But there was just something that he brought to this that was so, I felt the presence of faith and something quite spiritual.

00:38:32.729 –> 00:38:39.569
Lorde: I always feel that with his playing and, yeah, it was just a really cool texture for us to kind of harness.

00:38:39.569 –> 00:38:57.949
Lorde: And, you know, with these like incredible players who have such idiosyncrasy, fitting that into my production, I often, you know, am just kind of about like just cherry picking these like small moments of like deep humanity.

00:38:58.449 –> 00:39:03.369
Lorde: I’m just like, wow, like I just, someone’s just like entered in this crazy way.

00:39:03.369 –> 00:39:10.709
Lorde: And Andrew, I feel like, you don’t need much because it’s so, so rich and, you know, says so much.

00:39:10.709 –> 00:39:11.249
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:39:11.249 –> 00:39:14.829
Jim-E: And so just all play through this second course, but that’s when he makes his first appearance.

00:39:14.849 –> 00:39:19.529
Jim-E: And it’s just these raw cutting super ripping guitars.

00:39:20.989 –> 00:39:21.869
Lorde: You can solo him too.

00:39:21.869 –> 00:39:22.889
Lorde: It sounds so fucking good.

00:39:32.809 –> 00:39:33.649
Jim-E: So that’s just it is.

00:39:52.279 –> 00:40:14.939
Jim-E: I feel like too, that was like a moment also, in just like discovering the sound of the record, where just putting things together, like super distorted trashy guitars like that, with arpeggiating kind of like poppy synths, and then this kind of lush chords through the amp.

00:40:14.939 –> 00:40:22.159
Jim-E: Like this all just felt, all these kind of familiar elements put together in a certain way that just makes the whole thing feel distinct.

00:40:22.159 –> 00:40:30.739
Jim-E: But like none of it, you wouldn’t pick out any of those individually and be like, you know, oh, that’s some really freaky sound design thing or like whatever.

00:40:30.739 –> 00:40:36.499
Jim-E: But I feel like we managed to like take these familiar elements and put them together in like a new way like that.

00:40:37.579 –> 00:40:44.239
John Kennedy: Because fundamentally, as you were explaining earlier, that it’s the rhythm and the voice and the story.

00:40:44.239 –> 00:40:52.699
John Kennedy: They’re the heart of what we’re really listening to, but embellished and colored and given extra depth through all this extra stuff.

00:40:52.699 –> 00:40:53.599
John Kennedy: Yeah.

00:40:53.599 –> 00:41:02.559
John Kennedy: In some ways, it’s interesting for me, I think that rhythm with the story on top, because it seems so personal, it’s almost like a storytelling device.

00:41:03.039 –> 00:41:11.019
John Kennedy: As if you’re in a village just with a big stick and just pounding the stick, and then telling the story of what’s going on.

00:41:11.019 –> 00:41:19.539
John Kennedy: It’s tapping into that aged way of telling stories through and passing them on through generations possibly.

00:41:19.579 –> 00:41:20.819
John Kennedy: It’s interesting.

00:41:20.819 –> 00:41:23.559
John Kennedy: I’m interested in how you’re recording your vocals.

00:41:23.559 –> 00:41:29.799
John Kennedy: Know whether there’s a go-to setup for Ella, Lorde, or is it song specific?

00:41:29.799 –> 00:41:39.619
John Kennedy: The other thing which comes through via Patreon, one of our patrons, Charli Thacker, says, how much of the writing process of lyrics is done within the door as production arrangements come in?

00:41:39.619 –> 00:41:45.559
John Kennedy: Are songs transposed exactly from a notepad or is there an element of the production informing the lyrics?

00:41:46.319 –> 00:42:01.879
John Kennedy: When you started explaining what was happening with Favorite Daughter, some of those words just came to you and then you worked on the music, and then fleshed out those words and worked out what you were trying to talk about, and talk about your mom, etc.

00:42:04.019 –> 00:42:05.999
John Kennedy: Does it cross over in this way?

00:42:05.999 –> 00:42:17.279
John Kennedy: Do you then go to a pad and write it all down, and then say, right, got the words, these are the words, or do you carry on that improvisation process?

00:42:17.279 –> 00:42:22.759
Lorde: My method with lyrics is that there is absolutely no method.

00:42:22.759 –> 00:42:28.359
Lorde: I have written a song in any way possible.

00:42:28.359 –> 00:42:31.979
Lorde: I don’t always start this way, I don’t always start that way.

00:42:31.979 –> 00:42:43.659
Lorde: It’s all totally just like a response to either a piece of music, or if it’s starting with me, it’s just a response to something I’m hearing in my head.

00:42:43.659 –> 00:42:47.319
Lorde: But no, it’s all very open with this album.

00:42:47.319 –> 00:43:05.939
Lorde: I think this is an interesting one in that it starts with no lyric at all, and then it has some, and then actually the chorus ended up getting completely rewritten, which is quite rare for a composition of mine to totally change a lyric.

00:43:05.939 –> 00:43:17.459
Lorde: But often with these songs, they were being typed out after the fact of recording most, if not all of the lyric.

00:43:17.519 –> 00:43:29.979
Lorde: It was, yeah, in being more of a physical recording process and trying to kind of like bypass up here, I often found myself being like, well, I’ve got to write some of this down.

00:43:31.339 –> 00:43:50.719
Lorde: But yeah, it’s just sort of, I try to have like no method with it because, yeah, I think a big part of lyric writing is getting out of your own way and just sort of letting it, you know, I’m lucky enough to have a really strong, natural lyrical voice.

00:43:50.719 –> 00:43:57.979
Lorde: Like I just, there’s a type of image that I paint as a sort of way I have with language.

00:43:57.979 –> 00:44:03.839
Lorde: And certainly with this album, I was really going for a plainness of language.

00:44:03.839 –> 00:44:29.819
Lorde: I was reading a lot of, I mean, I’ve always been super into sort of these masters of plain language, whether it was like, someone like Raymond Carver in my teens or for Virgin, I was reading a lot of a French author called Annie Erno who has this voice that is distinctly feminine but totally unsentimental, very plain.

00:44:29.819 –> 00:44:36.739
Lorde: And what is not on the page really informs what is on the page.

00:44:36.819 –> 00:44:44.599
Lorde: There’s this immense kind of richness that comes from nothing extra, nothing surplus.

00:44:44.599 –> 00:44:50.239
Lorde: And certainly with this song, you know, it’s all five cent words, there’s nothing fancy going on.

00:44:50.239 –> 00:44:54.399
Lorde: And that was quite intentional on my part.

00:44:54.399 –> 00:45:09.599
Lorde: I didn’t think it was my place in writing this song for it to be a moment of sort of flexing or like look at this incredible image I can cook up, you know, it just felt like it needed to be truthful and simple.

00:45:09.599 –> 00:45:15.259
Lorde: I mean, it’s the same as the production really, just all the same ideologies.

00:45:15.259 –> 00:45:17.099
Lorde: Yeah, yeah.

00:45:17.099 –> 00:45:37.879
Jim-E: And then to just your question before, just vocal chain wise and stuff, a lot of, there are some bits in this, like the, this was just SM7 through a 1073, the little ad libs, but yeah, this whole song is just a U-47 1073 preamp and CL-1B.

00:45:37.879 –> 00:45:38.339
Lorde: Yeah.

00:45:38.339 –> 00:45:40.019
Jim-E: Compressor, and that was like pretty standard.

00:45:40.019 –> 00:45:51.059
Jim-E: I mean, it changes up here and there, but that was pretty standard across the album, but to try to be like sensitive to the song if something felt wrong for the song.

00:45:51.059 –> 00:45:54.139
Jim-E: Yeah, I’m trying to think, I mean, we could get to the last course.

00:45:54.599 –> 00:45:57.419
Jim-E: And here’s where it all maxes out.

00:45:57.419 –> 00:45:59.719
Lorde: Yeah.

00:45:59.739 –> 00:46:00.959
Jim-E: This is SM7.

00:46:31.959 –> 00:46:32.919
Jim-E: Sweet.

00:46:32.919 –> 00:46:34.179
John Kennedy: Excellent.

00:46:34.179 –> 00:46:35.679
John Kennedy: So interesting.

00:46:35.679 –> 00:46:36.879
John Kennedy: We’re going to take a quick break.

00:46:36.879 –> 00:46:39.919
John Kennedy: And then the next song we’re going to look at is Crone Woman next.

00:46:39.919 –> 00:46:40.519
John Kennedy: Is that right?

00:46:40.519 –> 00:46:41.019
John Kennedy: That’s right.

00:46:41.379 –> 00:46:44.539
John Kennedy: Excellent.

00:46:44.539 –> 00:46:51.559
John Kennedy: For musicians and songwriters who rely on voice notes, like so many of our guests do, Tape It, the iPhone recording app is made for you.

00:46:51.559 –> 00:46:54.479
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00:46:54.479 –> 00:47:02.239
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00:47:02.239 –> 00:47:07.359
John Kennedy: Layering is a brilliant way to flesh out ideas while staying in the creative flow.

00:47:07.359 –> 00:47:11.159
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00:47:11.159 –> 00:47:21.139
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00:47:21.139 –> 00:47:28.479
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00:47:28.479 –> 00:47:33.919
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00:47:33.919 –> 00:47:37.779
John Kennedy: The next song we’re going to look at from Virgin by Lorde is Grown Woman.

00:47:38.299 –> 00:47:41.419
John Kennedy: So Jim-E, if you do the honors and play as her blast of the master, that would be brilliant.

00:48:45.623 –> 00:48:49.483
John Kennedy: And by Lorde from the Virgin album.

00:48:49.483 –> 00:48:51.263
John Kennedy: Such an interesting song.

00:48:51.263 –> 00:48:52.003
John Kennedy: What’s going on?

00:48:52.003 –> 00:48:54.263
John Kennedy: How did this start?

00:48:54.263 –> 00:49:05.603
Lorde: Well, this actually started with me basically singing the whole song into my phone on the, when I was getting ready for work.

00:49:05.603 –> 00:49:08.483
Lorde: We were in the studio, it was the end of 2023.

00:49:09.583 –> 00:49:18.063
Lorde: And I’m pretty sure the same week, we had just finished writing Man of the Year.

00:49:18.063 –> 00:49:22.043
Lorde: And this was like maybe a day or two later.

00:49:22.043 –> 00:49:31.483
Lorde: And yeah, sang the whole thing like pretty much, almost forbade him into my phone and came in.

00:49:31.483 –> 00:49:46.243
Lorde: And it was so cool to me that this song, which is sort of very much about kind of really feeling your femininity would come like hot on the heels of a song where you’re like, okay, this is it.

00:49:46.243 –> 00:49:48.883
Lorde: My masculinity is what’s real to me, you know?

00:49:48.883 –> 00:49:52.963
Lorde: It was like this cool kind of washing machine of stuff.

00:49:52.963 –> 00:49:56.303
Lorde: But really like, yeah, we did that.

00:49:56.303 –> 00:50:01.183
Lorde: We sort of had this couple hours of kind of just tracking it down quarterly.

00:50:01.323 –> 00:50:04.723
John Kennedy: You don’t have that recording of you singing it.

00:50:04.723 –> 00:50:05.303
John Kennedy: It’s somewhere.

00:50:05.303 –> 00:50:06.223
Lorde: I absolutely do.

00:50:06.223 –> 00:50:07.243
Jim-E: Yeah, I have it.

00:50:09.363 –> 00:50:10.423
Lorde: I’ve got it on my phone.

00:50:10.423 –> 00:50:11.083
Lorde: Yeah.

00:50:11.083 –> 00:50:11.443
Lorde: Okay.

00:50:11.443 –> 00:50:15.843
Lorde: This is called First Grown Woman, Decima 4th, 23.

00:50:31.583 –> 00:50:31.883
Lorde: Okay.

00:50:31.883 –> 00:50:32.803
Lorde: And then there’s this.

00:50:48.723 –> 00:50:50.803
Lorde: Yeah, just kind of…

00:50:50.803 –> 00:50:51.843
John Kennedy: So I’m trying to picture…

00:50:51.843 –> 00:50:55.723
John Kennedy: So you’re getting ready to go to the studio to meet up with Jim-E.

00:50:55.723 –> 00:51:02.223
John Kennedy: So you’re kind of wandering around your room or whatever it is, just doing whatever you do when you’re getting ready.

00:51:02.223 –> 00:51:03.843
John Kennedy: Yeah, exactly.

00:51:03.843 –> 00:51:05.663
John Kennedy: So these ideas are just coming into your head.

00:51:05.663 –> 00:51:07.283
John Kennedy: So you’re then picking up the phone.

00:51:07.283 –> 00:51:09.423
John Kennedy: Or have you got the phone recording anyway?

00:51:09.423 –> 00:51:09.663
John Kennedy: No.

00:51:09.663 –> 00:51:12.423
Lorde: No, yeah, just pick up the phone, record a couple bits.

00:51:12.423 –> 00:51:16.243
John Kennedy: Because it’s almost like, you know how you might be getting ready with the radio on.

00:51:17.043 –> 00:51:18.703
John Kennedy: So you might be singing along to the radio bit.

00:51:19.043 –> 00:51:24.523
John Kennedy: But in effect, this is you singing along to your own thoughts and just kind of jotting them down.

00:51:24.523 –> 00:51:27.743
John Kennedy: And then being able to take them to Jim-E, take them to the studio.

00:51:27.743 –> 00:51:31.723
John Kennedy: And then suddenly we’ve got a song, which is pretty amazing.

00:51:31.723 –> 00:51:32.203
Lorde: Totally.

00:51:32.203 –> 00:51:39.863
Lorde: And this was cool because I feel like so much of Virgin came from, started from, you know, responding to like a rhythmic piece, you know.

00:51:39.863 –> 00:51:45.203
Lorde: And then this was like, yeah, just it was about following what it wanted to be.

00:51:45.903 –> 00:51:46.443
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:51:46.443 –> 00:51:51.123
Jim-E: I was going to say, I feel like you also like pretty distinctly like heard, like what the chord should be too.

00:51:51.123 –> 00:51:54.383
Jim-E: I mean, remember we were doing it with just bass notes on the Moog or maybe it’s the Juno.

00:51:54.383 –> 00:52:04.263
Jim-E: I mean, we can hear here, but I feel like the kind of the basis of the song come together like pretty quick from the time you left your apartment to being in the studio.

00:52:04.263 –> 00:52:04.863
Lorde: Totally.

00:52:04.863 –> 00:52:05.543
Lorde: I can’t play.

00:52:05.543 –> 00:52:08.963
Lorde: So I’m sort of like, no, here, no, this finger here.

00:52:08.963 –> 00:52:15.123
Lorde: Like sometimes when I can hear it, I’m just kind of, you’re like, here.

00:52:17.263 –> 00:52:18.603
Jim-E: That’s this.

00:52:20.623 –> 00:52:20.903
Jim-E: Juno.

00:53:03.263 –> 00:53:06.583
Jim-E: And then that, so it’s just Juno and then Ella’s vocal.

00:53:06.583 –> 00:53:07.763
Jim-E: That was probably SM7.

00:53:07.763 –> 00:53:24.703
Jim-E: And then we, at that point, we were just like running a bunch of stuff through an AMS, sorry, uh, unit and just, that was like the maybe room two and I think the reverse setting on it, but I don’t know, I’m just freaking it a little out the gate.

00:53:24.703 –> 00:53:25.903
John Kennedy: It must have been exciting though.

00:53:25.903 –> 00:53:28.303
John Kennedy: I mean, I just love the idea that you just kind of walk through the door.

00:53:28.303 –> 00:53:32.043
John Kennedy: I just recorded this before I arrived here.

00:53:32.043 –> 00:53:35.883
John Kennedy: And then, I don’t know, half an hour later, you’ve already got all that.

00:53:35.883 –> 00:53:36.303
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:53:36.303 –> 00:53:37.423
Lorde: No, it’s really fun.

00:53:37.483 –> 00:53:38.203
Jim-E: No, that was a really fun day.

00:53:38.203 –> 00:53:39.523
Lorde: Tracking something down like that is the best.

00:53:39.523 –> 00:53:41.363
Jim-E: Yeah, that was a really fun day.

00:53:41.363 –> 00:53:56.143
Jim-E: Sometimes, so much of making and writing and producing music can feel so hard at points, but there’s always those moments like that where you’re just like, bam, we’ve been in the studio half an hour and we have an idea that we love.

00:53:56.143 –> 00:53:57.023
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:53:57.023 –> 00:53:59.183
Lorde: And so with this, like…

00:53:59.183 –> 00:54:00.883
Jim-E: Yeah, we could play through some of the early versions.

00:54:00.883 –> 00:54:02.563
Lorde: Yeah, so we were no drums.

00:54:02.603 –> 00:54:03.263
Jim-E: Yeah, so no…

00:54:03.503 –> 00:54:06.183
Lorde: When did we chop up drums?

00:54:08.423 –> 00:54:10.563
Jim-E: Yeah, there’s a little synth we put in.

00:54:14.803 –> 00:54:15.583
Jim-E: All distorted.

00:54:22.823 –> 00:54:26.803
Jim-E: Okay, and then, and then, I don’t know if this was the same day, but then we did put drums in.

00:54:50.905 –> 00:54:53.605
Jim-E: So that was like step two and step three.

00:54:53.605 –> 00:54:55.365
Jim-E: We changed the key.

00:54:55.365 –> 00:54:55.825
Jim-E: We went up.

00:55:10.785 –> 00:55:14.045
Jim-E: And we had guitar, which would eventually get muted.

00:55:14.105 –> 00:55:16.005
John Kennedy: Right.

00:55:16.005 –> 00:55:19.685
John Kennedy: Yeah, this gives such a different flavor to it all.

00:55:19.685 –> 00:55:20.125
Jim-E: Totally.

00:55:24.925 –> 00:55:29.865
Jim-E: And this song at this point, I mean, this was like 90 seconds long.

00:55:29.945 –> 00:55:30.225
Jim-E: Oh, yeah.

00:55:30.225 –> 00:55:40.325
Lorde: So this is the other thing is I sort of saw this as like, just this little kind of interlude or sort of postscript to Man of the Year, not really a whole song, just a verse in a chorus.

00:55:40.325 –> 00:55:47.285
Lorde: And I think it was you at some point, you were like, I think this needs to take a verse.

00:55:47.285 –> 00:55:49.005
Jim-E: Yeah, it was too good to just be done.

00:55:49.065 –> 00:55:51.525
Lorde: Yeah, you were like, come on.

00:55:51.525 –> 00:55:52.005
Lorde: I was like, okay.

00:55:57.085 –> 00:55:59.285
Jim-E: Yeah, so we started adding more stuff, then we had like a second verse.

00:56:02.225 –> 00:56:04.565
Lorde: So we’re just copying over the first verse, no lyric there.

00:56:04.565 –> 00:56:10.325
Jim-E: Yeah, just kind of basically like creating a form.

00:56:13.905 –> 00:56:17.785
Jim-E: So I feel like it was like really evolving at that point, and then I think we sped it up a bit.

00:56:20.485 –> 00:56:21.885
Jim-E: Yeah, then we had this little bit from Buddy.

00:56:44.325 –> 00:56:45.165
Jim-E: Yeah, and then from there…

00:56:48.305 –> 00:56:52.665
Jim-E: Oh, and then I think, so we were still bass from the beginning.

00:56:58.165 –> 00:57:01.845
Jim-E: But then eventually we actually opted to do chords.

00:57:03.845 –> 00:57:06.525
Jim-E: Kind of far in, actually.

00:57:06.525 –> 00:57:07.645
Jim-E: Quite a number of versions, man.

00:57:13.085 –> 00:57:14.765
Jim-E: So that was a big change, and then…

00:57:25.165 –> 00:57:26.725
Jim-E: And then there was still music in this bit.

00:57:26.725 –> 00:57:27.985
Jim-E: This is the…

00:57:28.025 –> 00:57:32.025
Jim-E: Well, I’ll get to it in a bit.

00:57:32.025 –> 00:57:35.445
Lorde: So we had all these cool components.

00:57:35.445 –> 00:57:38.165
Jim-E: And then, yeah, here.

00:57:38.165 –> 00:57:41.965
Lorde: That was the first time we took everything out.

00:57:50.525 –> 00:58:39.765
Lorde: It’s so interesting that song, like it really just sort of inched along and one thing added and another thing added, and we knew we had these elements that we wanted to balance, which is this delicate kind of sweet femininity, and then something more the sort of deep guttural kind of womanhood that I was feeling, and something more was that macho about it, and yeah, just kind of getting the two flavors and balance kind of took some, I don’t know, took some work, and actually there were like, because Buddy gave us so many, contributed so many incredible pieces, all this cool granulascent stuff.

00:58:39.765 –> 00:58:40.225
Jim-E: Yeah.

00:58:40.225 –> 00:58:41.965
Lorde: And-

00:58:41.965 –> 00:58:42.645
John Kennedy: So who’s this?

00:58:42.645 –> 00:58:42.945
John Kennedy: This is-

00:58:42.945 –> 00:58:50.465
Jim-E: So Buddy Ross, who’s just a friend of mine and an incredible producer, and I feel like he’s really the guy we’d bring in.

00:58:50.465 –> 00:59:12.645
Jim-E: I mean, he and I had done a bunch of stuff prior, but he just has all the, I don’t know, the kind of crazy freak sounds he makes and stuff, and they’ll often be in between keys and crazy sounding, like may need a little reining in, but he brings this real just unencumbered grit and cutting flavor to stuff.

00:59:12.645 –> 00:59:20.085
Jim-E: And there’s a few in it, but I mean the main one from him was this just like a granular synth patch he made.

00:59:31.833 –> 00:59:35.033
Jim-E: And where that happens in the song is just at the chorus.

00:59:52.493 –> 01:00:01.413
Lorde: Yeah, we had so much like, we sort of had like an embarrassment of riches, like all of these amazing things, so much luscious, so many different flavors.

01:00:01.413 –> 01:00:07.153
Lorde: And really with the song, it was about kind of muting a bunch of stuff.

01:00:07.153 –> 01:00:14.953
Lorde: Yeah, doing things like carving out that chorus a lot more because that sawing was just so effective.

01:00:14.953 –> 01:00:20.113
Lorde: And yeah, we had all sorts, we had softness and prettiness around it, da da da.

01:00:20.113 –> 01:00:23.193
Lorde: But once we just took it right down to that.

01:00:23.193 –> 01:00:29.873
Jim-E: And that was, and I’ve told you a million times, but that’s like a moment I feel like only you could ever do.

01:00:29.873 –> 01:00:46.793
Jim-E: It’s like where we had all these kind of beautiful components and Badella would just like always advocate for doing kind of like crazy and extreme stuff, like muting absolutely everything except drums, vocal and an insane, atonal, granular synthesis patch, you know.

01:00:46.793 –> 01:00:52.973
Jim-E: But that, like for me personally, just selfishly, I’m like, that’s like why I do this, do those crazy moments.

01:00:53.053 –> 01:00:56.773
Jim-E: And it was just like, I mean, I was just absolutely in heaven when we had those.

01:00:56.773 –> 01:00:58.933
Jim-E: And that was only you, you know.

01:00:59.853 –> 01:01:02.593
John Kennedy: But it’s great because it makes it quite primal.

01:01:02.593 –> 01:01:02.893
Jim-E: Yeah.

01:01:03.393 –> 01:01:14.833
John Kennedy: The song, which ties in with what you’re saying, but it also, I mean, in some ways, I feel as if this song has a greater significance because you, Ella, as Lorde, started out so young.

01:01:14.833 –> 01:01:32.153
John Kennedy: And so the idea of you now grown woman making conscious decisions about how you’re gonna sound, about what you’re gonna do, what you’re gonna say, who you were telling us you are now, has all these layers of meaning, which is really fascinating.

01:01:32.153 –> 01:01:44.613
John Kennedy: As somebody who’s watching the artist from afar and seeing that journey and that growth and that change, and that you’re in control of it and you’ll know what you’re doing, that you are commanding this universe.

01:01:45.073 –> 01:01:48.293
John Kennedy: And this ends up being quite a statement about that, I think.

01:01:48.853 –> 01:01:50.013
John Kennedy: Yeah, which is really interesting.

01:01:50.153 –> 01:01:57.473
John Kennedy: And in terms of how you recorded your vocals for that, obviously we heard the phone vocals and we heard the other vocals.

01:01:57.473 –> 01:02:01.493
John Kennedy: But in order to capture that, did you try out the vocals in different ways?

01:02:01.493 –> 01:02:06.253
John Kennedy: The final version that we hear, that sounds really strong as well.

01:02:06.253 –> 01:02:08.653
John Kennedy: Did that mean you had to record it in a different way?

01:02:08.653 –> 01:02:09.953
Lorde: We cut these a lot.

01:02:10.533 –> 01:02:16.813
Lorde: And this was the only song on the album that we used the 251 for, is that right?

01:02:17.333 –> 01:02:17.973
Lorde: We felt like the-

01:02:17.973 –> 01:02:19.293
Jim-E: It’s all funky 251.

01:02:19.293 –> 01:02:24.153
Lorde: Yeah, just like a bit more of a slice, almost like a digital camera or something.

01:02:24.153 –> 01:02:25.813
Lorde: It just had a different-

01:02:25.813 –> 01:02:27.033
Jim-E: Yeah, I felt like the-

01:02:27.033 –> 01:02:28.893
Lorde: Energy that we liked.

01:02:28.893 –> 01:02:29.533
Jim-E: Yeah.

01:02:29.533 –> 01:02:31.933
Jim-E: The U-47, I mean, it’s incredible obviously, but-

01:02:31.933 –> 01:02:33.073
Lorde: It’s so rich.

01:02:33.113 –> 01:02:44.193
Jim-E: It’s like, yeah, rich, very like, can be woolly and big and stuff, but there’s something about the 251 that just really cut through, that felt so right for this song.

01:02:44.193 –> 01:02:44.993
Jim-E: I mean, I think sometimes-

01:02:44.993 –> 01:02:46.693
Lorde: It’s a bit messy.

01:02:46.693 –> 01:02:47.633
Jim-E: Yeah, it is.

01:02:47.633 –> 01:02:51.273
Jim-E: I mean, I just remember us doing that and I was like, oh, this just fits.

01:02:51.273 –> 01:02:52.033
Jim-E: It just sounds good.

01:02:52.033 –> 01:02:55.473
Jim-E: There are also some bits though we did-

01:02:55.473 –> 01:02:56.713
John Kennedy: Are there any effects on there?

01:02:56.773 –> 01:02:59.453
John Kennedy: I mean, the O-O bit, what’s going on?

01:02:59.453 –> 01:03:00.793
Jim-E: Yeah, there-

01:03:03.933 –> 01:03:06.113
Jim-E: So that’s all 251.

01:03:06.113 –> 01:03:07.493
Lorde: The AMS as well.

01:03:07.493 –> 01:03:15.953
Jim-E: Yeah, but then from one of the earlier versions where we tried it on a U67, and this was in New York.

01:03:15.953 –> 01:03:23.533
Jim-E: But this was repatched from when it was in a different key on the U67 and this had an AMS chorus on it.

01:03:34.433 –> 01:03:36.033
Jim-E: So that’s layered in there.

01:03:36.033 –> 01:03:39.013
Jim-E: Then I think this was through a guitar pedal, this next layer.

01:03:43.233 –> 01:03:48.633
John Kennedy: Right, so you’re taking the original vocal but putting it through all these different effects and then combining them all.

01:03:50.073 –> 01:03:53.653
Jim-E: Yeah, it amounts to a unique texture all together.

01:03:53.653 –> 01:03:55.853
Jim-E: So we got to play with everything.

01:04:12.393 –> 01:04:14.793
Jim-E: Yeah, a lot of the vocal effects with this came.

01:04:14.793 –> 01:04:23.293
Jim-E: I mean, Devil Lock again, we put on a lot of stuff just for a good crunch, and squeezing into your face.

01:04:23.293 –> 01:04:35.033
Jim-E: Then a lot of the freakier stuff was really just as a result of recording the original version in a different key, and pitching it back up, doing some stuff through the AMS.

01:04:35.113 –> 01:04:38.033
Jim-E: There’s nothing all that crazy on these vocals.

01:04:38.113 –> 01:04:43.553
Jim-E: I feel like pretty straightforward, just EQ and compression.

01:04:43.553 –> 01:04:53.573
Jim-E: Just RVox is one of my favorite vocal compressors, because it’s just one knob you just pull down, and it’s either good or bad.

01:04:54.753 –> 01:04:57.473
Jim-E: There’s no fiddling you can do.

01:04:57.473 –> 01:05:01.473
Jim-E: But I think this song, the production is interesting.

01:05:01.813 –> 01:05:06.233
Jim-E: It does have this really primal feeling from the drums, but it’s like a weird beat.

01:05:06.313 –> 01:05:10.053
Jim-E: And I remember us programming this together in a really bespoke manner.

01:05:10.093 –> 01:05:11.833
Lorde: Yeah, this is a cool.

01:05:15.553 –> 01:05:17.213
Lorde: This is a cool.

01:05:17.213 –> 01:05:19.993
Jim-E: It’s kind of fair to hear where the pulse is too, click.

01:05:22.213 –> 01:05:23.953
Lorde: Very Jim-E, very Ella.

01:05:23.953 –> 01:05:24.853
Jim-E: Yeah.

01:05:24.853 –> 01:05:25.833
Lorde: Yeah, I think I like.

01:05:26.933 –> 01:05:32.953
Lorde: You know, one of my favorite things to do with you production-wise is to program drums.

01:05:32.953 –> 01:05:38.273
Lorde: Because we both have like such kind of specific rhythm instincts.

01:05:38.273 –> 01:05:38.433
Lorde: Yeah.

01:05:38.433 –> 01:05:43.873
Lorde: And we’re often like very in sync on what we want, you know.

01:05:44.353 –> 01:05:51.773
Lorde: And lots of the drums for Virgin are these, yeah, kind of very bespoke grooves, which is a, which is a you thing.

01:05:51.773 –> 01:06:09.573
Lorde: But I just remember us like, you know, yeah, always very fun kind of, yeah, taking this kick away, taking this, moving this snare, you know, like it was just a very bespoke process and totally very field-based.

01:06:09.573 –> 01:06:15.773
Lorde: And like, we’d just be totally synced up on what we have.

01:06:15.793 –> 01:06:17.473
Lorde: Okay, have you thought about it and you would do it?

01:06:17.473 –> 01:06:18.213
Lorde: Okay, good.

01:06:18.993 –> 01:06:24.313
Jim-E: And I remember, well, I don’t know what we were talking about, but I remember you were so fast in your answer once.

01:06:24.313 –> 01:06:26.373
Jim-E: We were like talking about our favorite instruments or whatever.

01:06:26.373 –> 01:06:28.093
Jim-E: I was like, what’s your favorite instrument?

01:06:28.093 –> 01:06:29.493
Jim-E: I was just like drums.

01:06:29.493 –> 01:06:34.033
Jim-E: Just like, and I feel like that’s like never anyone’s answer, but it’s like exactly mine too.

01:06:34.033 –> 01:06:36.933
Jim-E: It’s just like the best thing in any music.

01:06:36.933 –> 01:06:43.793
Lorde: Well, going back to that thing you were saying, I feel like about this kind of like storytelling with a stick.

01:06:43.793 –> 01:06:44.413
Jim-E: Yeah, totally.

01:06:44.473 –> 01:06:53.293
Lorde: Like there is just something very, music for me is very primal and I am always kind of connecting to this.

01:06:53.293 –> 01:07:09.553
Lorde: Yeah, like really ancient form of storytelling honestly, when I make my pop bangers and yeah, just to me like getting a song sort of as close to just vocals and percussion as possible.

01:07:09.553 –> 01:07:19.153
Lorde: There’s just something ancient about it, something very cool and yeah, primal happens and no different to Royals really, like it’s the same instinct.

01:07:19.513 –> 01:07:20.313
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:07:20.313 –> 01:07:21.733
Lorde: Yeah, anyway.

01:07:21.733 –> 01:07:23.913
John Kennedy: Yeah, it’s a through line isn’t it, which is a good thing.

01:07:23.913 –> 01:07:33.973
Jim-E: Yeah, it does feel like this, it’s so true to you in that sense again, just like going back to this course, it’s just drums, your vocal.

01:07:36.253 –> 01:07:40.093
Jim-E: And then with Buddy’s granular synthesis, Sol.

01:07:44.633 –> 01:07:46.933
Jim-E: It just feels so you.

01:07:47.393 –> 01:07:56.953
Lorde: It was something about this, I was like, this whole record, I was like, I’m trying to make a document of my femininity, and I really feel like this hook.

01:07:56.953 –> 01:08:00.753
Lorde: I was like, that’s the kind of woman I am and I’m choosing to be.

01:08:02.433 –> 01:08:11.453
Lorde: Sort of unspearing and strong and also like with a glint in the eye, you know, it’s kind of, I call this my fuck girl song.

01:08:11.713 –> 01:08:16.293
Lorde: It’s like very sort of like bombastic and kind of dumb about it at times.

01:08:16.293 –> 01:08:20.013
Lorde: And yeah, I just think all that combines like that.

01:08:20.013 –> 01:08:33.093
Jim-E: And this was another one where we did some stuff like again, just like with Favorite Daughter, just effects wise, I mean like a big element in this just being this bass you hear throughout a lot of it, like kind of when first, the first turnaround.

01:08:33.093 –> 01:08:36.093
Lorde: You finally know who you wanna be.

01:08:36.093 –> 01:08:40.813
Jim-E: Where it’s just a Moog again through a guitar amp.

01:08:41.913 –> 01:08:42.773
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:08:42.773 –> 01:08:43.853
Jim-E: And some EQ.

01:08:43.853 –> 01:08:45.093
John Kennedy: Quite raw.

01:08:49.173 –> 01:08:50.913
Jim-E: You know, it’s really like alive.

01:08:50.913 –> 01:08:51.093
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:08:51.173 –> 01:09:06.913
Jim-E: You know, it’s like it’s not anything crazy at all, but I think just like because there’s just live circuitry and stuff when you plug something in a wall, it’s you know, may sound the same, similar, but it’s never gonna be like quite the same every little like millisecond of how the amp reacts to the synth.

01:09:06.913 –> 01:09:07.613
Jim-E: Yeah.

01:09:07.613 –> 01:09:08.293
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:09:08.293 –> 01:09:08.953
John Kennedy: Fantastic.

01:09:09.093 –> 01:09:10.273
John Kennedy: I’m conscious of time.

01:09:10.273 –> 01:09:10.733
John Kennedy: Cool.

01:09:10.733 –> 01:09:12.533
John Kennedy: We have one more song we want to look at.

01:09:12.533 –> 01:09:15.473
John Kennedy: So maybe we should take a quick break.

01:09:15.653 –> 01:09:17.533
John Kennedy: And we’ll be back with Shapeshifter.

01:09:20.893 –> 01:09:29.733
John Kennedy: This episode of Tape Notes is brought to you by LANDR, the all-in-one platform for musicians to create, master and release their music to over 150 streaming platforms.

01:09:29.733 –> 01:09:37.233
John Kennedy: Whether you need AI-powered mastering, industry-leading VST plugins, or a massive library of premium samples, LANDR has you covered.

01:09:37.233 –> 01:09:47.613
John Kennedy: Connect and collaborate with artists, sharpen your skills with over 200 expert-led courses, and when you’re ready to share your music with the world, with LANDR Distribution, you can ensure it reaches a global audience.

01:09:47.613 –> 01:09:52.993
John Kennedy: And today, I’m joined by Daniel Rowland, Head of Strategy at LANDR, to tell us more about it.

01:09:52.993 –> 01:09:53.853
John Kennedy: Hi Daniel.

01:09:53.853 –> 01:09:58.553
John Kennedy: So what makes LANDR Distribution such a game changer for artists?

01:09:58.553 –> 01:10:00.393
Daniel: Yeah, John, thanks for having me on.

01:10:00.393 –> 01:10:07.913
Daniel: So two big things kind of separate LANDR from everybody else in that regard, and one of them is we don’t assume you know what you’re doing when you go to distribute your music, right?

01:10:07.913 –> 01:10:12.193
Daniel: So we really put a lot of time in our intuitive release wizard that steps you through the process.

01:10:12.293 –> 01:10:19.353
Daniel: If you’re not comfortable with ISRCs or cover song licensing and all this stuff, that we really make sure you understand that as you move through the process.

01:10:19.353 –> 01:10:22.253
Daniel: So when you come back to do it again, it makes even that much more sense.

01:10:22.253 –> 01:10:26.413
Daniel: The other thing, and this is the biggest thing, is that we invest a lot in customer support.

01:10:26.413 –> 01:10:32.133
Daniel: You know, when you go to release your music, you’ve like decided the performance is right, the production is right, the song is right, the mix and match.

01:10:32.133 –> 01:10:36.853
Daniel: You have to make all these decisions before you have the confidence to go actually release your music to the world.

01:10:36.853 –> 01:10:46.853
Daniel: And if the company you choose to go with lets you down, doesn’t answer your questions, doesn’t follow up with you ASAP, you’re never going to forgive them for that because you’re like exposed emotionally when you go to do that, right?

01:10:46.853 –> 01:10:49.153
Daniel: I think we’ve all been there as artists and musicians.

01:10:49.153 –> 01:10:51.933
Daniel: So we make sure that you feel like you are not just a number.

01:10:51.933 –> 01:11:02.353
Daniel: And I think it’s one of the nice parts of us being not one of the massive distribution companies that can’t really afford anymore to support their customers, but we’re right at that sweet spot where we can make sure that you feel taken care of.

01:11:02.353 –> 01:11:08.173
Daniel: And we’ve, you know, that’s been our thing forever, buy musicians for musicians, and the proof is in the pudding and that we actually come through on that.

01:11:08.173 –> 01:11:08.753
John Kennedy: Fantastic.

01:11:08.753 –> 01:11:13.593
John Kennedy: And how does the platform help artists grow their audience and connect with more fans?

01:11:13.593 –> 01:11:13.913
Daniel: Sure.

01:11:13.913 –> 01:11:16.473
Daniel: So one example is we’re a Spotify Preferred Partner.

01:11:16.473 –> 01:11:20.673
Daniel: So you get instant Spotify verification and the tools to pitch your music to playlists.

01:11:20.673 –> 01:11:35.033
Daniel: And unique to LANDR is we have a network of thousands of professionals across the industry for everything you could need for music production, whether it’s mixing, mastering, but also for marketing and distributing your music, developing plans to really get your music heard by as many people as possible.

01:11:35.033 –> 01:11:38.073
John Kennedy: But LANDR isn’t just about distribution, right?

01:11:38.533 –> 01:11:51.573
Daniel: No, LANDR started as an AI mastering company 11 years ago and has broadened to be everything you need from the day you come up with a song idea, through mixing, mastering, plugins, samples, education, and distribution.

01:11:51.573 –> 01:11:56.753
Daniel: And it’s all for one price that is the same price of any one of those services from another company.

01:11:56.753 –> 01:12:02.873
Daniel: So it’s everything you could need at the lowest price in the industry, and it’s constantly evolving as we’re adding new features and services.

01:12:02.873 –> 01:12:06.053
John Kennedy: And I hear you’ve got a special offer for our listeners.

01:12:06.053 –> 01:12:06.593
Daniel: That we do.

01:12:06.913 –> 01:12:14.193
Daniel: So right now we’ve got 20% off of any LANDR subscription, whether that’s the studio subscription, which is everything we do, or even if you just want distribution.

01:12:14.193 –> 01:12:16.653
Daniel: Distribution you can get for as low as $24 a year.

01:12:16.653 –> 01:12:21.513
Daniel: That’s before that 20% discount, and studio sits at $99, again, before the 20%.

01:12:22.053 –> 01:12:25.613
Daniel: So pretty low cost to get in the door and we see what we can do for you and your music.

01:12:25.613 –> 01:12:26.253
John Kennedy: Amazing.

01:12:26.253 –> 01:12:26.933
John Kennedy: Thanks, Daniel.

01:12:26.933 –> 01:12:34.693
John Kennedy: To find out more about LANDR Distribution and Studio, head to landr.com/tapenotes and get 20% off any subscription.

01:12:34.973 –> 01:12:41.273
John Kennedy: That’s landr.com/tapenotes or find the link in any recent episode show notes.

01:12:41.273 –> 01:12:43.013
John Kennedy: Now on with the show.

01:12:43.013 –> 01:12:46.753
John Kennedy: The next song we’re going to look at from Virgin is Shapeshifter.

01:12:46.753 –> 01:12:48.753
John Kennedy: So Jimmy is going to play as the master.

01:13:52.177 –> 01:13:55.517
John Kennedy: It is Shapeshifter by Lorde from the Virgin album.

01:13:55.517 –> 01:14:06.597
John Kennedy: And Ella, you’ve mentioned how you wanted to, that drums are your favorite instrument, that you wanted to somehow capture some simplicity in a way about what you were doing.

01:14:06.597 –> 01:14:10.177
John Kennedy: And yet at the same time, you’re aiming for pop bangers.

01:14:10.177 –> 01:14:18.637
John Kennedy: And the interesting thing is that I think from what I hear, these are pop bangers, but they don’t bang too hard.

01:14:18.637 –> 01:14:23.457
John Kennedy: I mean GRWN woman is the hardest in a way, but because there’s a real subtlety to the percussion.

01:14:23.817 –> 01:14:29.357
John Kennedy: What brought you together with Jim-E is, this shared interest in rhythm and percussion and drums.

01:14:29.357 –> 01:14:33.297
John Kennedy: But at the same time, when we listen to Shapeshifter, it’s very subtle the percussion there.

01:14:33.297 –> 01:14:39.257
John Kennedy: It’s more akin to burial or something like that, which is really atmospheric and puts you in a certain kind of zone.

01:14:39.257 –> 01:14:43.877
John Kennedy: And then obviously when you sing on top of that, you take it to another place again.

01:14:43.877 –> 01:14:52.157
John Kennedy: But I just think it’s really interesting that on one level, popbangers, drums, but it’s much more subtle than that.

01:14:52.157 –> 01:14:53.357
Lorde: No, totally.

01:14:53.357 –> 01:14:57.817
Lorde: I think that’s just sort of maybe a hallmark of the kinds of listeners we are.

01:14:57.817 –> 01:15:02.797
Lorde: I don’t think we need things to really slam, to be destroyed by them.

01:15:02.797 –> 01:15:07.817
Lorde: And we talked a lot about lowering the center of gravity making this music.

01:15:07.817 –> 01:15:12.597
Lorde: I never wanted to be too high in the sky or something.

01:15:12.597 –> 01:15:16.297
Lorde: There was sort of this low to the ground feeling that I wanted.

01:15:16.377 –> 01:15:20.717
Lorde: And I think a lot of the percussion language speaks to that.

01:15:20.717 –> 01:15:24.417
Lorde: Sometimes it’s quite small, contained.

01:15:24.417 –> 01:15:29.017
Lorde: It gives you room to sort of move as a vocalist.

01:15:29.017 –> 01:15:42.177
Jim-E: I think also though, with everything we know how to do now with sound and engineering and stuff, there’s almost no secret into making stuff just be knocking as hell.

01:15:42.177 –> 01:15:44.797
Jim-E: It’s like, we figure that out at this point.

01:15:46.137 –> 01:15:54.077
Jim-E: But when you have to do stuff with more subtle drums and just keeping it lighter, there’s actually some real…

01:15:54.077 –> 01:15:59.517
Jim-E: There’s some needles to thread there, where it’s not just slam and kick, slam and snare.

01:15:59.517 –> 01:16:07.557
Jim-E: But yeah, this song, again, this started from a drum loop I had, and we just put some music over.

01:16:07.557 –> 01:16:10.717
Jim-E: Can just play the first kind of where it started.

01:16:10.717 –> 01:16:13.237
Jim-E: Teeny, tiny vocal on this.

01:16:13.297 –> 01:16:15.177
Lorde: A baby was in the studio that day.

01:16:15.177 –> 01:16:16.357
Jim-E: Yeah.

01:16:16.397 –> 01:16:18.057
Jim-E: That’s what it started as.

01:16:22.677 –> 01:16:23.477
Jim-E: It’s truly a baby.

01:16:32.977 –> 01:16:35.057
Lorde: You can hear me chewing gum.

01:16:35.057 –> 01:16:38.017
Lorde: That’s why I say chewing gum for the first time on the song.

01:16:38.257 –> 01:16:39.397
Lorde: It’s all scratch.

01:17:04.537 –> 01:17:11.897
Lorde: So definitely like the most complete track that we started with for Virgin, for Sure.

01:17:11.897 –> 01:17:14.597
Lorde: I mean, some of this we built in the room, but…

01:17:14.617 –> 01:17:15.077
Lorde: Well, did we?

01:17:15.097 –> 01:17:15.637
Lorde: I can’t remember.

01:17:15.637 –> 01:17:16.917
Lorde: No, you brought a lot of this in.

01:17:19.495 –> 01:17:20.335
Jim-E: Yeah, original chorus.

01:17:20.335 –> 01:17:22.095
Jim-E: Yeah, I mean, well, this just started with drum.

01:17:22.095 –> 01:17:28.355
Jim-E: I remember I had, I don’t know if you remember this, but I had these drums over like another, just chord progression.

01:17:28.515 –> 01:17:31.075
Jim-E: I made and sent you like way back in the day.

01:17:31.075 –> 01:17:31.835
Lorde: It’s gone.

01:17:31.835 –> 01:17:33.395
Jim-E: Yeah, but I thought they were cool drums.

01:17:33.395 –> 01:17:35.835
Jim-E: And so we just kind of started a new over them.

01:17:35.835 –> 01:17:47.195
Jim-E: But definitely like a lot of the early elements of just the, you know, being like just bass notes, like not too like chord heavy, like from the first day we did it, all that stuck.

01:17:47.195 –> 01:18:03.055
Jim-E: And it was just a matter of, you know, some something we did throughout so much of the album was just like kind of our patchwork of like putting things together, the embroidery, as you’ve said, and just kind of getting all these little pieces, putting them together, making it most effective.

01:18:03.055 –> 01:18:06.835
Jim-E: But I mean, yeah, it was really just drums to start it off.

01:18:07.035 –> 01:18:19.235
Jim-E: And I think actually the song starts with drums that were just, when the SM7, like what Aloe would record a lot of the scratch melodies on, was just recorded in the room.

01:18:19.235 –> 01:18:23.895
Jim-E: That I caught that on the, just in Logic and just like chopped it up.

01:18:23.895 –> 01:18:26.055
Jim-E: And the recording of just the drums playing.

01:18:27.095 –> 01:18:27.875
Jim-E: You can hear that.

01:18:27.875 –> 01:18:28.595
Jim-E: Yeah.

01:18:28.595 –> 01:18:31.955
Jim-E: It’s pretty like crappy sounding, but in a good way.

01:18:31.955 –> 01:18:37.355
Jim-E: So that’s like starts the song and then just building on top of that, put it again like through my amp.

01:18:43.246 –> 01:18:45.466
Jim-E: And then, there’s a kick too.

01:18:46.886 –> 01:18:51.386
Jim-E: And then, just some cassette layers too, here.

01:18:54.466 –> 01:19:01.426
Jim-E: I mean, I’m obsessed with these drums, just how there’s all these tiny layers we did that make it what it is.

01:19:03.546 –> 01:19:13.366
Jim-E: And then, you get to the chorus, and it’s kind of all this stuff, like recorded through the SM7, recorded through an amp, recorded through a cassette, and then you get to the chorus, and it’s just plain, direct, in the box.

01:19:13.366 –> 01:19:15.306
Jim-E: It kind of all comes into your face.

01:19:19.486 –> 01:19:21.586
Jim-E: And like, just, you know, no effects, nothing.

01:19:21.586 –> 01:19:25.286
Jim-E: It’s like all real stuff, and then like nothing real, quote unquote.

01:19:25.286 –> 01:19:27.006
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:19:27.006 –> 01:19:29.586
John Kennedy: And are you processing the drums in any way?

01:19:29.586 –> 01:19:36.786
Jim-E: Yeah, so with these, I mean, again, it’s like a lot of the first stuff you hear is like, you know, through a cassette or the amp that’s just like EQ and stuff.

01:19:36.786 –> 01:19:38.986
John Kennedy: Is it a real cassette or is it a plug-in?

01:19:38.986 –> 01:19:39.446
Jim-E: That’s real.

01:19:40.266 –> 01:19:44.566
John Kennedy: So you’re recording it to cassette and then playing it back in from the cassette.

01:19:44.566 –> 01:19:47.086
Jim-E: Yeah, and just recording the cassette player.

01:19:47.086 –> 01:19:47.446
John Kennedy: Wow.

01:19:47.446 –> 01:19:49.806
Jim-E: It’s all like, again, like real.

01:19:49.806 –> 01:19:58.186
Jim-E: And then in terms of processing them all together, just, yeah, I feel like this is like a good example of kind of what I often do in drums, but which is just like little radiator.

01:19:58.186 –> 01:20:00.506
Jim-E: It’s pretty basic.

01:20:00.546 –> 01:20:14.126
Jim-E: SSL, Comp, API, Eq, then OTT for like a little more energy, a little more EQ.

01:20:14.126 –> 01:20:17.786
Jim-E: I think it’s just like kind of little moves with a lot of stuff.

01:20:17.786 –> 01:20:22.826
Jim-E: And yeah, I mean, that’s just like that really drives so much of the song.

01:20:22.826 –> 01:20:25.606
Jim-E: Later in this, I mean, I’ll get, I’ll go through the other elements.

01:20:25.606 –> 01:20:33.126
Jim-E: But later in the song, like we do have live drums that really fill it out so nice in the second verse.

01:20:33.126 –> 01:20:35.606
John Kennedy: Right.

01:20:35.606 –> 01:20:41.786
John Kennedy: And those initial drum sounds, are they, have you assembled a drum library for yourself over the years?

01:20:41.786 –> 01:20:42.446
Jim-E: Yeah, totally.

01:20:42.446 –> 01:20:47.106
Jim-E: I mean, these are, some of these are like some of the first sounds I ever downloaded.

01:20:48.126 –> 01:20:50.886
Jim-E: And then other ones are just like random, you know, whatever.

01:20:50.886 –> 01:20:55.066
Jim-E: So maybe something from like Splice or, you know, something like that just over the years.

01:20:55.066 –> 01:21:01.506
Jim-E: But then, yeah, we eventually put like these live drums on it, which felt awesome and kind of Christian on the end here.

01:21:05.306 –> 01:21:08.586
Jim-E: Yeah, that was like our drum language.

01:21:08.586 –> 01:21:27.386
Jim-E: But from there, just to kind of take it back to the demo, this was again, we were, we were at this point in kind of making this demo, we had, we were just running like two channels into the interface from the board and I like didn’t have the SM7 track muted.

01:21:27.386 –> 01:21:35.966
Jim-E: So you can hear, this is like the, this is the profit but it’s also getting the recording of what was happening in the room, where you can hear the drums too.

01:21:35.966 –> 01:21:41.086
Jim-E: So it’s just kind of everything happened in the room and like one sound, not very technically sound.

01:21:41.086 –> 01:21:46.846
Jim-E: But then I just kind of, this was the song I feel like I like in chunks just like ran with a bit.

01:21:46.846 –> 01:21:54.106
Lorde: Yeah, this was really one that yeah, sometimes making an album you’re kind of like, someone has the vision for a song.

01:21:54.106 –> 01:22:06.806
Lorde: And I was like always in on the song, but I think it’s important to know when like your homie is just flying and kind of like let him go and then like, obviously we’re all in on the nuts and bolts together.

01:22:07.226 –> 01:22:10.746
Lorde: But this is such a you expression which I love.

01:22:10.786 –> 01:22:11.726
Jim-E: Sure, yeah.

01:22:11.726 –> 01:22:16.426
Jim-E: And to go and collect pieces to bring you to embroider.

01:22:16.426 –> 01:22:21.186
Jim-E: But then part of that and like I thought this was cool in making the chords and stuff.

01:22:22.566 –> 01:22:45.206
Jim-E: Again, this is just the room, but then I just kind of re-pitched that to start making the chords, and you hear all the weird imperfections Just going note by note, again, kind of the just very few notes of the chords, like two notes in every chord, and a little lower layer.

01:22:45.206 –> 01:22:50.186
Jim-E: But these are all just like one note recorded in the room, accidentally re-pitched into a chord.

01:22:51.166 –> 01:22:55.706
Jim-E: Yeah, and a lot of the instrumental is just like really basic.

01:22:58.146 –> 01:23:02.226
Jim-E: You know, when we hit the chorus, like all we do is lose chords and go to bass notes.

01:23:06.826 –> 01:23:07.326
Jim-E: Was this just…

01:23:09.346 –> 01:23:10.486
Jim-E: Propho with some chorus.

01:23:25.766 –> 01:23:28.766
John Kennedy: And Ella, are you singing closer to the mic on this one?

01:23:29.446 –> 01:23:30.506
John Kennedy: Is that a choice?

01:23:30.506 –> 01:23:31.726
John Kennedy: Is that something that…

01:23:31.726 –> 01:23:33.886
Lorde: Yeah, I guess I was kind of eating it.

01:23:33.886 –> 01:23:34.486
Lorde: I don’t know.

01:23:34.486 –> 01:23:39.446
Lorde: Yeah, just like wanted an intimacy, I suppose.

01:23:39.446 –> 01:23:40.126
Lorde: I’m trying to think.

01:23:40.126 –> 01:23:44.646
Lorde: I’m like, did we cut that vocal the day after MSG?

01:23:45.546 –> 01:23:46.806
Lorde: That chorus?

01:23:46.806 –> 01:23:50.786
Jim-E: Oh yeah, you might be right, actually, because I remember you were like, oh, my voice is kind of fried.

01:23:50.786 –> 01:23:51.446
Lorde: I smoked a bunch of cigarettes.

01:23:51.446 –> 01:23:54.906
Lorde: Yeah, I’d gone out with Charli at MSG.

01:23:54.906 –> 01:23:57.186
Jim-E: Oh my God.

01:23:57.186 –> 01:23:58.906
Jim-E: I’m like, my mom might listen to this.

01:23:58.906 –> 01:24:02.786
Lorde: No, yeah, we had gone out with Charli at MSG.

01:24:02.786 –> 01:24:04.366
Lorde: And actually no cigarettes.

01:24:04.366 –> 01:24:04.866
Lorde: Cigarettes were smoked.

01:24:04.866 –> 01:24:05.966
Lorde: We’re not smoked at all.

01:24:06.026 –> 01:24:07.226
Lorde: No, no cigarettes were smoked.

01:24:07.226 –> 01:24:11.886
Lorde: But the next day my voice was for some reason somewhat hoarse.

01:24:11.886 –> 01:24:13.306
John Kennedy: Talking, it’s all that loud talking.

01:24:13.306 –> 01:24:14.786
Lorde: It’s all that loud talking.

01:24:15.866 –> 01:24:16.286
Lorde: We cut this.

01:24:16.286 –> 01:24:17.726
Jim-E: There’s maybe some second-hand smoke.

01:24:17.726 –> 01:24:21.506
Lorde: And there was something kind of, yeah, some intimacy for sure.

01:24:21.526 –> 01:24:27.046
Jim-E: I feel like in the song in general though, like you did, it’s like a classic, intimate performance of yours.

01:24:27.046 –> 01:24:27.806
Lorde: Sure.

01:24:27.806 –> 01:24:41.446
John Kennedy: Mention of Charli, I should just quickly mention this question that came in via Patreon from Johan who says, any remix album coming out, tongue in cheek mostly, but that would be so cool to have Charli XCX with you on a remix version of one of these tracks.

01:24:41.446 –> 01:24:43.326
Lorde: I know, wouldn’t it be?

01:24:43.326 –> 01:24:44.226
Lorde: Wouldn’t it be?

01:24:44.226 –> 01:24:45.966
Lorde: I mean, it’s so funny, isn’t it?

01:24:45.966 –> 01:24:53.046
Lorde: I feel like she just completely like dropped the mic on the whole, on like the concept of a remix.

01:24:53.046 –> 01:25:00.546
Lorde: Like I’m like, I have to think about how to even approach a remix as a pop artist.

01:25:00.566 –> 01:25:05.326
Lorde: You know, like I definitely feel like the dust is still settling on.

01:25:05.606 –> 01:25:08.426
Lorde: It was too good that whole remix language.

01:25:08.426 –> 01:25:09.446
Lorde: Time will tell you.

01:25:09.446 –> 01:25:10.406
John Kennedy: Yeah, yeah.

01:25:10.406 –> 01:25:12.026
John Kennedy: It would be a great exchange though.

01:25:12.026 –> 01:25:12.526
Lorde: Wouldn’t it?

01:25:12.526 –> 01:25:12.666
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:25:12.666 –> 01:25:14.366
Lorde: Wouldn’t it?

01:25:14.366 –> 01:25:23.906
Jim-E: The next like kind of big element that came in, I mean we can flick through some early versions, but really making this song what it was, was again Andrew, who played on Favorite Daughter.

01:25:23.906 –> 01:25:38.126
Jim-E: He came by the studio one day when we were working in LA, and just the guitar he put down just at the post here, really became like a big important part.

01:25:43.446 –> 01:25:45.386
Lorde: Almost everyone thinks it’s strange.

01:25:47.506 –> 01:25:50.206
John Kennedy: Yeah, but it’s just VG-8.

01:25:50.206 –> 01:25:51.146
Jim-E: Yeah.

01:25:51.146 –> 01:25:52.386
Jim-E: Here’s those.

01:25:53.986 –> 01:25:55.946
John Kennedy: So Andrew created those.

01:25:55.946 –> 01:25:56.766
John Kennedy: Is that what you’re saying?

01:25:56.766 –> 01:25:56.926
Jim-E: Yeah.

01:25:56.926 –> 01:26:00.906
Jim-E: So this is through a guitar.

01:26:00.986 –> 01:26:11.026
Jim-E: It’s kind of like MIDI, a Roland pedal board of sorts, but just you play through with a guitar and there’s a bunch of different presets and stuff to VG-8.

01:26:11.026 –> 01:26:14.286
Jim-E: They’re insanely expensive now on reverb.

01:26:14.586 –> 01:26:17.246
John Kennedy: So he is like a one-man orchestra in a way.

01:26:17.246 –> 01:26:18.106
John Kennedy: Totally.

01:26:18.106 –> 01:26:18.386
Jim-E: Totally.

01:26:18.386 –> 01:26:23.666
Jim-E: And it’s just MIDI kind of sounding stuff, but with that real live feel.

01:26:23.666 –> 01:26:32.346
Jim-E: And we just kind of enhance that with some cellos that my friend Rob Moose arranged and Gabe played.

01:26:38.375 –> 01:26:52.495
Lorde: And we really did sort of agonize over whether to have real strings on the song, because strings are really not a hallmark of like Lorde music.

01:26:52.495 –> 01:26:56.055
Lorde: It’s like not at all I reach for.

01:26:56.055 –> 01:27:02.275
Lorde: For me, strings, there’s like a prowess that I don’t feel like I’ve earned as a musician.

01:27:02.275 –> 01:27:06.475
Lorde: It always feels a little bit like stolen valor for me when I try to reach for them.

01:27:06.575 –> 01:27:14.295
Lorde: But eventually on the song, we just decided that it was what was needed, and what Rob did was so beautiful.

01:27:14.675 –> 01:27:15.315
Jim-E: So beautiful.

01:27:15.315 –> 01:27:19.135
Lorde: This one tiny touch of it really on the whole album.

01:27:19.135 –> 01:27:27.195
Jim-E: Yeah, and there’s really like crescendo in the end, which we can get to, but they kind of first start to really show up here, in the second period.

01:27:47.092 –> 01:27:51.532
Jim-E: So we kind of hit that at all, and then it all comes back to the same chorus.

01:27:56.452 –> 01:28:07.012
Jim-E: And then they’re just, I mean, throughout the rest of the song, I feel like there’s all these little elements, you know, that pop up that we just used a ton, like throughout the album.

01:28:07.012 –> 01:28:09.452
Jim-E: There’s this OP-1 patch I made.

01:28:14.892 –> 01:28:18.032
Jim-E: And like, that’s kind of subtly somewhere on everything.

01:28:18.032 –> 01:28:19.552
Jim-E: It’s in, what was that?

01:28:19.552 –> 01:28:21.392
Jim-E: It’s in David.

01:28:21.392 –> 01:28:25.672
Jim-E: It kind of shows up everywhere in like one form or another.

01:28:25.672 –> 01:28:35.872
Jim-E: But yeah, I feel like, well, there’s so many cool little things I could get into, but like a lot of the most exciting part of this production is just where things really like take off at the end.

01:28:36.032 –> 01:28:36.152
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:29:17.737 –> 01:29:29.597
Jim-E: Bro, that was like a huge, I just love how lush and amazing that is, but that was like a huge embroidery for us and just how we like pulled all these pieces together, kind of starting with these like pulsing synths.

01:29:31.597 –> 01:29:39.097
Lorde: Yeah, making sure that each thing showed through just the right amount and kind of had its moment, you know.

01:29:41.677 –> 01:29:45.037
Lorde: Rob stuff kind of pushes forward for these moments.

01:29:46.977 –> 01:29:55.537
Lorde: All this, yeah, every single layer in here, it was like many sessions of kind of, what’s the right one to take focus?

01:29:55.537 –> 01:29:56.537
Lorde: What’s meant to be in here?

01:29:57.117 –> 01:29:57.937
Lorde: What can come away?

01:30:09.420 –> 01:30:23.920
John Kennedy: Really interesting what you were saying about strings, though, and how, in a way, you felt that they weren’t part of your world or that you hadn’t been qualified enough to use them, which seems kind of crazy, because you’ve now been doing this for a long time.

01:30:24.300 –> 01:30:26.420
Lorde: Yeah, I’m such an un-technical musician now.

01:30:26.420 –> 01:30:31.800
John Kennedy: Taken over the world in so many ways, and you kind of earned the right to use whatever the hell you like.

01:30:31.800 –> 01:30:32.340
John Kennedy: Damn right.

01:30:33.740 –> 01:30:43.140
John Kennedy: But interestingly, also relating to that, do you think about what you are going to present to people when you perform these songs live?

01:30:43.180 –> 01:30:46.840
John Kennedy: Obviously, you’ve got a big tour all lined up, ready to go.

01:30:46.840 –> 01:30:56.300
John Kennedy: When you’re creating with Jim-E, it’s just a one-on-one situation, are you thinking, oh, well, if we’re going to use the cello, then how am I going to replicate that?

01:30:56.300 –> 01:30:58.100
John Kennedy: And what way do I do that?

01:30:58.100 –> 01:31:06.520
John Kennedy: Does that dimension of what you’re all about, the live performance, does that come into decision-making with regard to recording?

01:31:06.520 –> 01:31:12.740
Lorde: No, I like to go recording first and try to translate that with the show.

01:31:12.740 –> 01:31:20.780
Lorde: And I think with this stuff, it’s definitely not about needing every single thing to even be present.

01:31:20.780 –> 01:32:26.100
Lorde: Again, I’m sort of going to go back to that load-bearing pillars principle and yeah, sort of, I wouldn’t mind if things further simplify for the show, but definitely what we’re starting to talk about and starting to build is something quite modular so we can have these moments of wildness and let some of these flavors sort of just sing maybe a bit more than they do even in the recorded version because I think there’s a kind of pop show that is still pretty pop in structure, but sort of has these moments of wildness because to me like every synth, every drum, every kind of funny little thing from Buddy or from Andrew, like I think of them as they’re all voices and some of these voices can have a bit more time to sort of sing and shout a bit louder or something in the context of the live show.

01:32:26.100 –> 01:32:31.380
Lorde: I’m really thinking about sort of how best to do it, but no, it’s going to be fun.

01:32:31.380 –> 01:32:32.360
Lorde: It’s going to be a cool tour.

01:32:32.360 –> 01:32:33.820
Lorde: I’m really excited.

01:32:33.820 –> 01:32:35.120
John Kennedy: Going into new territory.

01:32:35.580 –> 01:32:36.920
John Kennedy: Always exciting.

01:32:38.220 –> 01:32:41.960
John Kennedy: So what do you think are the elements of these load-bearing pillars then?

01:32:42.180 –> 01:32:43.460
John Kennedy: What are they?

01:32:43.460 –> 01:32:46.680
Lorde: In the song or for the album generally?

01:32:46.680 –> 01:32:50.900
John Kennedy: I guess for you before this album and for you now.

01:32:50.900 –> 01:32:56.920
John Kennedy: No, because is that a term that you’ve kind of thought of and applied to yourself before?

01:32:57.160 –> 01:33:00.780
John Kennedy: Or is it going in and starting working with Jimmy and stuff?

01:33:00.780 –> 01:33:04.380
John Kennedy: Did you then start thinking those terms?

01:33:04.380 –> 01:33:10.080
Lorde: I mean, I put words to it then, but it’s just sort of like how I think about things.

01:33:10.200 –> 01:33:20.320
Lorde: I’m very aware as someone who makes like stuff to entertain people, that their time is super precious and their attention is super precious.

01:33:20.320 –> 01:33:29.140
Lorde: And I’m trying to provide a service, really like move sort of like the max amount of energy through people that I can.

01:33:29.140 –> 01:33:34.320
Lorde: And yeah, I take it very seriously and not for granted that attention.

01:33:34.320 –> 01:33:43.660
Lorde: So I’m always trying to get myself out of the way, you know, as much as I can and just kind of like let the composition happen.

01:33:43.660 –> 01:34:04.020
Lorde: But I think going into this album and what we’ve come out with, I can definitely see that I can see my principles, our principles sort of having been executed, you know, it is voice and storytelling front and center.

01:34:04.020 –> 01:34:23.160
Lorde: Yeah, there’s this real kind of physicality or bone structure that comes from sort of the percussion language and then, yes, sort of these moments of insanely rich, saturated melody in the form of a piece of guitar from Andrew or a flavor like the PolySix.

01:34:23.160 –> 01:34:31.040
Lorde: To me, every song is just kind of made up of those same things and different configurations.

01:34:31.040 –> 01:34:33.060
John Kennedy: Yeah, really interesting.

01:34:33.060 –> 01:34:35.380
John Kennedy: Have we heard everything we need to hear from Shapeshifter?

01:34:35.380 –> 01:34:36.820
Jim-E: I want to show one more cool thing.

01:34:38.440 –> 01:34:40.100
John Kennedy: We always want one more cool thing.

01:34:40.100 –> 01:34:40.940
Lorde: Go, go.

01:34:40.940 –> 01:34:41.740
Lorde: Everyone.

01:34:41.740 –> 01:34:48.700
Jim-E: Just speaking of this kind of bridge section here, just one thing that was so fun to do is there’s these…

01:34:48.840 –> 01:34:55.380
Jim-E: I think when we were really digging into this song, it was February or March, 2024.

01:34:55.380 –> 01:34:58.860
Jim-E: Remember, there was just torrential rain in LA.

01:34:58.860 –> 01:35:00.560
Lorde: It was an atmospheric river.

01:35:00.560 –> 01:35:02.200
Jim-E: Yes, more specifically.

01:35:02.840 –> 01:35:07.540
Jim-E: And I just recorded some of the rain outside of the studio.

01:35:07.540 –> 01:35:13.440
Jim-E: And we then like found a note just using Pro Q.

01:35:15.040 –> 01:35:16.760
John Kennedy: So this is the rain in LA.

01:35:16.760 –> 01:35:17.400
Jim-E: Yes.

01:35:17.400 –> 01:35:18.580
Jim-E: But then, well, yeah.

01:35:18.580 –> 01:35:21.520
Jim-E: And this is, so this is what it was like.

01:35:21.520 –> 01:35:23.040
Jim-E: That’s just the rain.

01:35:24.640 –> 01:35:29.720
Jim-E: But then with the EQ, just kind of trying to bring some, make it part of the music, feel some of the atmosphere.

01:35:31.220 –> 01:35:38.160
Jim-E: Just cranking whatever frequency this is, 390, which is like G4 on the keyboard.

01:35:38.160 –> 01:35:42.180
Jim-E: And then again, then thinning it out a bit.

01:35:43.640 –> 01:35:46.660
Jim-E: And putting some La Ciena to kind of make it crunchier.

01:35:46.660 –> 01:35:53.420
Jim-E: Just having that like droning note throughout the song, and then harmonizing it with more rain, repatched.

01:35:55.820 –> 01:35:58.520
Lorde: Just getting to embed a little memory or something.

01:35:58.520 –> 01:36:01.800
Jim-E: Yeah.

01:36:01.800 –> 01:36:03.380
Jim-E: Just sounds like.

01:36:07.760 –> 01:36:25.620
Jim-E: Again, I feel like there’s just like a lot of the album with the, just bringing kind of physical things into it, like, you know, finding some music in the atmospheric river or just like recording sense through an amp or whatever, just kind of like bringing, you know, the environment and where we were in the places into the music.

01:36:25.620 –> 01:36:28.120
Jim-E: And then that’s like the nerdiest example.

01:36:28.120 –> 01:36:28.560
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:36:28.560 –> 01:36:40.160
John Kennedy: No, it’s great though, because it does help create a kind of a live feel to things somehow and make them more part of the natural world in a way, or make them more real somehow.

01:36:40.160 –> 01:36:47.040
John Kennedy: Even that idea that you were explaining earlier, Jim-E, when you included recording with something else in the background.

01:36:47.660 –> 01:36:53.240
John Kennedy: But it meant it all feels more real, that we could be in the room with you both as you create.

01:36:53.480 –> 01:36:54.360
John Kennedy: Which is exciting.

01:36:54.360 –> 01:36:58.220
John Kennedy: No, just as it is exciting when a band is performing in front of you in a room.

01:36:58.220 –> 01:36:58.760
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:36:58.760 –> 01:37:03.360
John Kennedy: It creates that feel for us when we’re listening to it, which is really, yeah, it’s brilliant.

01:37:03.360 –> 01:37:04.280
John Kennedy: I love it.

01:37:04.280 –> 01:37:07.800
John Kennedy: There’s one more patron question from a guy called Joe.

01:37:07.800 –> 01:37:10.420
John Kennedy: Which track off Virgin took the longest to complete?

01:37:10.840 –> 01:37:12.880
John Kennedy: Which one took the quickest?

01:37:12.880 –> 01:37:14.920
Jim-E: Oh, great question.

01:37:14.920 –> 01:37:16.960
John Kennedy: I’m trying to think.

01:37:16.960 –> 01:37:17.900
Jim-E: What is the longest?

01:37:21.040 –> 01:37:23.220
Lorde: Wasn’t Favorite Draw or what was that?

01:37:23.220 –> 01:37:26.960
Jim-E: Favorite Draw, favorite draw, I kicked my ass.

01:37:26.960 –> 01:37:28.120
Jim-E: But just lyric.

01:37:28.120 –> 01:37:29.360
Jim-E: Yeah, I guess it did.

01:37:29.360 –> 01:37:30.260
Lorde: The whole thing.

01:37:30.260 –> 01:37:31.860
Lorde: That’s a funny.

01:37:31.860 –> 01:37:32.520
Jim-E: Yeah.

01:37:32.520 –> 01:37:33.100
Jim-E: I guess you’re right.

01:37:33.100 –> 01:37:33.800
Lorde: That was a mess.

01:37:33.860 –> 01:37:35.080
Jim-E: No, that probably was long.

01:37:35.080 –> 01:37:40.960
Jim-E: Because what was that I feel like took a long time, but then once it was done, it was like done.

01:37:40.960 –> 01:37:44.580
Jim-E: I feel like then we were still working on that in like another couple of months once that was done.

01:37:44.580 –> 01:37:45.740
Lorde: Right, yeah.

01:37:45.740 –> 01:37:50.200
Jim-E: But Favorite Daughter, yeah, from inception to end, that was probably.

01:37:50.200 –> 01:37:51.860
Lorde: Never, yeah, that was too much.

01:37:51.860 –> 01:37:53.320
Lorde: And then the shortest.

01:37:53.320 –> 01:37:54.320
Jim-E: Or more.

01:37:54.320 –> 01:37:56.500
Lorde: Yeah, I can’t even.

01:37:56.500 –> 01:37:57.500
Jim-E: Yeah, PTSD.

01:37:57.500 –> 01:37:58.280
Lorde: I have PTSD.

01:37:58.440 –> 01:37:59.740
Lorde: What was the shortest?

01:37:59.740 –> 01:38:00.520
Lorde: Was that Clear Blue?

01:38:00.540 –> 01:38:01.760
Lorde: Would that have been the shortest?

01:38:01.760 –> 01:38:03.000
Jim-E: Yeah, probably.

01:38:03.000 –> 01:38:03.560
Lorde: Yeah.

01:38:03.560 –> 01:38:04.020
Jim-E: Yeah.

01:38:04.020 –> 01:38:14.680
Lorde: A song called Clear Blue, which is all acapella and, yeah, just something very naturalistic and came sort of right at the end of the process.

01:38:14.680 –> 01:38:16.920
Lorde: I think that was our shortest.

01:38:16.920 –> 01:38:17.360
Jim-E: Yeah.

01:38:17.360 –> 01:38:22.000
Jim-E: I mean, even though there was still process to that though, I think we tried it a variety of ways.

01:38:22.000 –> 01:38:27.860
Jim-E: It was like pure acapella, no vocoder, no somewhere in between.

01:38:28.180 –> 01:38:34.220
Jim-E: Maybe, I don’t know, I feel like there was a lot of taking a simple thing, a simple idea, and kind of trying it a variety of ways.

01:38:34.220 –> 01:38:38.460
Jim-E: And yeah, that was the shortest beginning to end, Clear Blue.

01:38:38.460 –> 01:38:45.260
John Kennedy: We have a couple of questions that we ask everybody who comes on Take Notes, but I need to know before we get onto them, why Virgin?

01:38:45.260 –> 01:38:49.100
Lorde: Virgin, for a number of reasons.

01:38:49.100 –> 01:39:03.520
Lorde: This album is really me trying to, yeah, get down to this sort of very pure version of myself and strip a lot away until I found that.

01:39:03.520 –> 01:39:06.000
Lorde: It’s also quite sexual.

01:39:06.000 –> 01:39:13.740
Lorde: And I thought this idea of purity that is not relating to kind of like sexual purity was interesting.

01:39:13.740 –> 01:39:24.520
Lorde: But I also looked up, you know, there’s sort of like roots to the etymology and lots of stuff to do with it.

01:39:24.520 –> 01:39:32.920
Lorde: Sort of there was like an androgynous thing built into the etymology of the word virgin, the Latin.

01:39:34.300 –> 01:39:41.400
Lorde: And then I also just thought about, you know, the materiality, this music is just machines and bodies.

01:39:41.400 –> 01:39:51.400
Lorde: And, you know, when I think about like virgin steel, you know, there’s just this kind of cold, clean purity that I think of.

01:39:52.160 –> 01:40:07.540
Lorde: And also it was just a period for me of this sort of newness, kind of felt at times like a second puberty or something, a real kind of crudeness or lack of refinement in how I was expressing.

01:40:08.600 –> 01:40:23.400
Lorde: And yeah, and a vulnerability to that and sort of this feeling of nervousness of being on this precipice and yeah, all of that just combined to equal virgin.

01:40:23.400 –> 01:40:24.380
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:40:24.380 –> 01:40:27.000
John Kennedy: The first question we ask everybody, it comes on the podcast.

01:40:27.000 –> 01:40:43.760
John Kennedy: So if you have listened and you have watched, so you know what is going to come, is do you have a favorite piece of tech or equipment or an instrument that you have to save in a file or something like that, or it could just be project specific to this record?

01:40:43.760 –> 01:40:44.300
Jim-E: Me first.

01:40:44.300 –> 01:40:45.760
Lorde: Yeah, you first, you go.

01:40:45.760 –> 01:41:03.620
Jim-E: I have two tough ones, but I would probably say Moog Rogue, that it’s like, even though it’s just monophonic, just it being, I don’t know, it’s such a basic, simple synth.

01:41:03.720 –> 01:41:30.500
Jim-E: It’s so, it’s like two octaves, or like an octave and a half of keys, but it’s just like such a big thing, I think just like on this album that, where I just maybe like learned something and evolved so much again, it’s just going back to the like very minimal number of notes and chords, and with like sometimes we would just make chords out of just one note at a time on a monophonic synth, like over the rogue.

01:41:30.500 –> 01:41:33.740
Jim-E: And it’s just so basic, so raw.

01:41:33.740 –> 01:41:52.420
Jim-E: It’s like you could make a whole album with that really, and it could sound very electronic and tough and all that, but you can also be like really soft and I don’t know, but it’s all just contained in this $900 on Craigslist.

01:41:52.420 –> 01:41:55.440
John Kennedy: It’s gone up, it was $800 when you mentioned it.

01:41:58.800 –> 01:42:00.560
Jim-E: I was monitoring it.

01:42:01.940 –> 01:42:03.500
John Kennedy: Brilliant.

01:42:03.500 –> 01:42:04.940
John Kennedy: Do you have anything to think about?

01:42:04.940 –> 01:42:06.060
Lorde: I’m trying to think, yeah.

01:42:06.060 –> 01:42:11.080
Lorde: I mean, I’m really not a very technical music maker.

01:42:11.080 –> 01:42:14.080
Lorde: There’s not much I can’t live without.

01:42:14.080 –> 01:42:20.240
Lorde: I mean, I definitely have only on this album gained an appreciation for the SM7.

01:42:20.240 –> 01:42:23.580
Lorde: I feel like it really facilitated a lot coming out of me.

01:42:23.700 –> 01:42:34.800
Lorde: Typically, I would always cut demo vocals just right into the U-47 or whatever, and I found a lot of freedom in cutting with an SM7.

01:42:34.800 –> 01:42:41.080
Lorde: So maybe if I’ve just got that, I could fuck around and do something cool.

01:42:41.080 –> 01:42:43.300
Jim-E: Absolutely.

01:42:43.300 –> 01:42:43.920
Lorde: Sick answer.

01:42:46.520 –> 01:42:50.420
John Kennedy: The other question we always want to know about is about advice.

01:42:50.420 –> 01:43:00.880
John Kennedy: Whether you’ve learned something along the way that you’d want to pass on to other people, or maybe you’ve received some words of wisdom from somebody that you think were really valuable.

01:43:00.880 –> 01:43:01.460
John Kennedy: Wow.

01:43:01.460 –> 01:43:12.480
Lorde: Well, something pertaining to production that I feel is, like I say, I’m a very un-technical music maker.

01:43:12.480 –> 01:43:20.020
Lorde: I often don’t know what it is that I’m hearing or, yeah, exactly, I often don’t know exactly what it is.

01:43:20.940 –> 01:43:26.120
Lorde: But what I have is my ear and my taste and my instinct.

01:43:28.840 –> 01:43:35.960
Lorde: And I think just the best thing that you’re going to make is the thing that only you can make.

01:43:35.960 –> 01:43:47.120
Lorde: There is an expression that you could make as an artist that is because of your unique upbringing and things that you’ve listened to and experiences that you’ve had can only come from you.

01:43:48.180 –> 01:44:04.660
Lorde: And to like tap totally into your inner voice that is telling you what sounds good to you and what feels like you, it’s just the coolest thing you can do and will absolutely produce the best thing you could make.

01:44:04.720 –> 01:44:11.180
Lorde: And you know, it can be really hard to trust our own sort of judgmental artistic voice.

01:44:11.180 –> 01:44:19.660
Lorde: But I think, yeah, I would say just sort of really trust your taste, trust your ear.

01:44:19.660 –> 01:44:23.500
Lorde: Don’t sweat the kind of, the brain part of it.

01:44:23.500 –> 01:44:30.600
Lorde: You know, is this, am I making cool enough choices or is this a like cutting edge enough move or whatever?

01:44:30.600 –> 01:44:38.340
Lorde: Just yeah, make the thing that only you can make and just like listen to something and respond to it.

01:44:38.340 –> 01:44:43.900
Lorde: Let your body tell you, if it’s feeling right or if it needs to be different.

01:44:44.340 –> 01:44:49.740
Lorde: It’s so basic, but that’s all music making is, is like being connected to that part of yourself.

01:44:49.740 –> 01:44:50.740
John Kennedy: Yeah.

01:44:50.740 –> 01:44:53.300
Jim-E: I think mine would be, that’s so beautiful by the way.

01:44:53.300 –> 01:44:56.740
Jim-E: I mean, I feel like that’s just, that is what music making is.

01:44:56.740 –> 01:45:00.780
Jim-E: It’s just tapping into the, only you can do what you can do.

01:45:00.780 –> 01:45:02.040
Jim-E: Nobody else can replicate that.

01:45:04.900 –> 01:45:19.400
Jim-E: I think for me, it’s like, what I felt and learned so much along the way is, just the, how important it is to commit to the vision, and that can also mean like the vision evolving and changing too.

01:45:19.400 –> 01:45:30.580
Jim-E: And not that it had any like wild big swings, but like part of, you know, committing to it is not being like too fixed and like something being just, oh, just what I think it should be.

01:45:30.740 –> 01:45:37.300
Jim-E: But part of committing is like allowing something to be what it wants to be and not trying to control it too much.

01:45:37.300 –> 01:45:48.660
Jim-E: And I think, yeah, I mean, that throughout making this album, like definitely just, I mean, we could like talk a big game about it, but I feel like, you know, in making the album, that was just a huge part of it.

01:45:48.660 –> 01:46:15.980
Jim-E: You know, just getting in the, I think it’s like, we talked about it at one point, but there was a point in the album where, when we were like in the tunnel, where like you can’t see the light from which you came, and you can’t see the light at the end, but you just like keep, just, you know, just remain, yeah, just trust and remain like committed to what you’re doing and like commit to taking all those twists and turns, because you will get to the other side.

01:46:15.980 –> 01:46:35.100
Jim-E: And if you just embrace that, embrace that the vision can take you on a crazy path, you will make an incredible body of work that only you could make, and you can just like not try and over control it, just let it unfold in the dark, and then the pinball of light, then a little more light, then a little more light.

01:46:35.960 –> 01:46:36.600
Jim-E: Yeah.

01:46:36.600 –> 01:46:38.320
John Kennedy: Fantastic, embrace the vision.

01:46:38.780 –> 01:46:39.620
John Kennedy: Brilliant, I love that.

01:46:39.620 –> 01:46:41.580
John Kennedy: Thank you so much for talking to us.

01:46:41.580 –> 01:46:42.620
John Kennedy: We really appreciate it.

01:46:42.620 –> 01:46:43.060
John Kennedy: Thank you so much.

01:46:43.060 –> 01:46:47.240
John Kennedy: We should play one more selection from Virgin, something to see us out.

01:46:47.240 –> 01:46:48.760
John Kennedy: What should we go for?

01:46:48.760 –> 01:46:50.880
Lorde: I think we should play Man of the Year.

01:46:50.880 –> 01:46:51.720
Jim-E: Man of the Year.

01:46:51.720 –> 01:46:53.080
John Kennedy: Okay, we’ve heard Grown Woman.

01:46:54.200 –> 01:46:56.280
John Kennedy: Now we can hear Man of the Year.

01:46:56.280 –> 01:46:58.300
John Kennedy: Ella, Jim-E, thank you so much.

01:46:58.300 –> 01:46:59.780
John Kennedy: And this is Man of the Year.

01:46:59.780 –> 01:47:01.600
John Kennedy: It is Lorde from Virgin.

01:47:13.057 –> 01:47:18.357
John Kennedy: Thank you for listening, and in particular thanks to all of you who have signed up to support us on Patreon.

01:47:18.357 –> 01:47:22.877
John Kennedy: I’m just one part of the team that brings you Tape Notes, and it relies on your support.

01:47:22.877 –> 01:47:30.877
John Kennedy: Access to Patreon includes the full-length videos of new episodes where possible, ad-free episodes and detailed gear lists among many other things.

01:47:30.877 –> 01:47:34.657
John Kennedy: If you’d like to join, head to the link on our socials or website.

01:47:34.657 –> 01:47:43.357
John Kennedy: For pictures, highlight clips and behind-the-scenes content, head to our Instagram or YouTube channel and on Discord, you can join the growing Tape Notes community.

01:47:43.357 –> 01:47:44.897
John Kennedy: Once again, thank you for listening.

01:47:44.897 –> 01:47:46.177
John Kennedy: Until next time, goodbye.